How to Stop Self-Sabotaging Your Weight Loss Journey

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Mike: The whole point of fitness is to just keep playing the game. The only way that you lose is if you quit, and the only reason you quit is because your expectations are on a certain timeline that doesn't exist. There is no finish line. It's never over. So you don't have to stress. It's fine.

Nikkiey: What's going on, you guys? Welcome back to The WarriorBabe Show, or if you guys are new, welcome to the show. We have a very special guest here with us, a local PA native. Let's go. And a high-level nutrition coach. He's been at this for 10 years. He has a gift for understanding the psychological and the physiological needs of his clients, and that gift has led to thousands of success stories. He's also the force behind the Mind Over Macros podcast. Mike is here to share his expertise on having a tailored approach to diet and mindset and fitness, and how we can revolutionize our health and fitness journey. So Mike, it's great to have you here with us.

Mike: Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Thanks so much for having me.

Nikkiey: Cool. Well, let's kick things off. I want to know a little bit about your story, your journey, and the listeners want to know too. What led you to become so passionate about nutrition? What led you to become so passionate about the mindset in the fitness world?

Mike: Yeah, I think, like most of us in this industry, it comes back to our own personal journeys. I never, in a million years, would have predicted that I'd be doing what I do today. I grew up an athlete, I played sports my whole life, and I always considered myself the lucky one in my family, because I noticed from a young age my mom was always on a diet. I have two older sisters, and they were always concerned about their weight. I think there's just a lot of pressure on women. I saw that happening from a very young age, but I was like, hey, I play sports, I've got the fast metabolism, I can eat whatever I want, so I'm good. I'm never going to struggle with my weight.

Until I went to college. I still played sports, and then once I didn't have organized sports anymore, I was still eating and drinking like a typical college kid. And I gained probably about 80 pounds in about a year and did not recognize myself. I was in Maryland, where I went to school, and after I graduated I stayed an extra year, because I was dating somebody who then became my wife, who's now my ex-wife. Anyway, I woke up one morning, went into the bathroom, and I was like, oh my God, I don't even recognize myself. Who is this person?

It was heavy drinking, a lot of fast food, and I wasn't playing organized sports anymore, so I wasn't as active. I was working and I was bartending, so I was on my feet, but outside of that I was partying it up and doing what typical college kids do. And it was that moment where I knew I needed to make a change. But the thing I've reflected back on is that it was really an identity-shattering moment for me, because I identified so deeply as an athlete. So there was this internal dialogue in my head of, I can't see people I went to high school with, because I know they're going to be like, what happened to you? How did you let yourself go? All these questions would pop up, and I didn't feel confident playing basketball or stepping on a tennis court or doing anything I used to do.

So my solution was, let me get this weight off as fast as I can to get back to being me. And that led me down a path of doing hours of cardio and trying to starve myself. I didn't know anything. I was the most susceptible person to bold claims in the fitness industry. If anybody was like, hey, you could lose 100 pounds in two weeks, I'm like, yes, sign me up. That's my program. I need that right now. Infomercials, and I know I'm aging myself a little bit, or things on the radio. The bigger and bolder the promise, the more all-in I was.

So as a 260-pound male at the time, I was doing 1,200-calorie meal plans, trying to eat as little as possible, and doing two hours of cardio every day. I would lose a bunch of weight, and I would gain it all back. It took me the better part of a decade to crawl out of that hole. I suffered from body dysmorphia. I had a horrible relationship with food, a horrible relationship with my body and exercise. I could continue with all the impact it had on my well-being, my relationships, my marriage at the time, my family and the dynamic there. Everything around me was crumbling because I was so obsessed with losing weight. And ultimately, when I crawled out of that dark place and figured things out for myself, that led me to want to pay it forward and help people avoid all the stuff I had gone through.

Nikkiey: Wow. I didn't even realize our stories overlap in a very similar way. I was the athlete too. And then I had the period from post-high school to 25 where I was partying it up, trying to figure out life. And then at 25 it was like, yo, you've got to reel it in and get your shit together. Holy moly. Well, thanks for sharing that. That paints a little bit of a light as we dive into some questions I have.

Like a lot of women, you struggled with, oh, I'm going to hop on this next new thing that's hot. I love that you shared that, because I think everybody has been there. It's like, oh, this new flashy thing is going to tell me I'm going to lose weight in X amount of time. Sign me up. And then you were doing 1,200 calories at that point. So what were the things that shifted your mindset into realizing, okay, this isn't the way, how do I make it more sustainable for myself? This isn't working, or it worked for a period of time, but it's not getting me where I want to be in a sustainable fashion. Where was that switch?

Mike: Yeah, so unfortunately, it was one of those rock-bottom moments where it was like, something has to change, because this can't be my life forever. And oftentimes, I would blame myself. The pattern that a lot of people fall into, and that I definitely fell into, was I would do the meal plan. That was the first thing I ever tried. I bought this piece of cardio equipment because, again, I saw a commercial, and they said it burns 17 times more calories than a treadmill. And I'm like, boom, that's my thing. I'm going to buy it. So I bought this piece of cardio equipment and put it in my apartment. On the back page of the little instruction manual, there was a sample meal plan. It was a 1,200-calorie sample meal plan. And I just followed that. I was like, I don't know what I'm doing, I'm just going to follow this 1,200-calorie meal plan, because this is the cardio machine that's going to get me fit.

And I lost a ton of weight, but I couldn't maintain. I would reach that tipping point where I would just eat everything in sight. But then I would blame myself. I was like, well, it quote-unquote worked, because I lost a lot of weight. If I had just been more disciplined, if I just had more willpower, if I could just fight through those cravings and the low energy and the fatigue and all the stuff I was experiencing, if I could just stick with it, I would have been exactly where I wanted to be.

And I would find different versions of that. Eliminating carbs, that's the way to go. I did another program where you don't eat your first meal until 2 p.m. You can only eat between 2 and 8, so I had this six-hour feeding window. You could only eat carbs if you worked out. I've done everything. I did Optivia before it was Optivia, back when it was Medifast. And it was still basically the same.

Nikkiey: Oh my gosh.

Mike: Yeah, I literally did everything. And I would always beat myself up. Why can't you just stay disciplined? Why can't you just follow through? The weight is coming off. And then I would gain it back. And I consider myself a pretty disciplined person, so it was hard to grapple with that internal struggle. I know I can commit to things. When I say I'm going to do something, I follow through. So why is this so difficult?

Then I was sitting in my house one day. I had moved back to outside of Philly, where I'm from. I'd gotten married, I was still trying to figure things out, still going through this diet struggle. My wife and I, my ex-wife now, used to travel a lot. We always wanted to see new places, experience the world, experience new cultures. We would have date nights and things like that. I started playing sports again and got into a flag football league. We would hang out with friends and go out for drinks. And I just stopped doing all of that, because I associated it with discipline. I was like, I have to drown out everything else in my life and really focus and do it this time.

So we were no longer traveling. We weren't doing date nights anymore. People would reach out like, hey, do you want to go out to dinner? And I'd be like, oh, I'm sorry, I'm not feeling well. I would skip out on family gatherings. And then there was a moment where I was sitting on the couch, probably eating chicken and broccoli, and I'm like, this is what my life is. All of my relationships are crumbling. I'm lonely. I'm not happy. I don't like how I look. I don't like how I feel. If I say I value family, if I say I value relationships, if I say I value friendships, I'm tearing it all down just because I'm trying to follow this bullshit meal plan I bought online? How does this make sense?

That was my rock-bottom moment. I was like, there has to be a better way. It just can't be this way. So I started trying to educate myself at that point. I'm a pretty smart person. I graduated college. I feel like I'm intelligent. So it was like, let me just figure out what's actually happening in my body. What does nutritional science say? What is the human metabolism? And it was really when I poured myself into education that I was like, oh, okay, now I see the disconnect. I've been putting my body through the wringer. I've been eating way less than my body requires. It's triggering hunger, it's slowing down my metabolism, and it's making weight regain so, so easy to happen. That was the light bulb moment that really shifted things for me. But unfortunately, it came from that rock-bottom situation.

Nikkiey: Yeah, well, I think the best people in this space are made from that, honestly. They all have that backstory. Thank you for sharing that. Very vulnerable moments for you, for sure. There's a lot to unpack there, and I want to pin some of the things you mentioned because I want to circle back to them.

The first one I want you to elaborate on, from your experience, is the psychological barriers a lot of people face when they're trying to lose weight. You mentioned the identity shift. You mentioned saying no to your friends and your family and having to block out everything you value. And people go down that rabbit hole in their mind of, am I surrounding myself with the right people? Or they don't feel like they're surrounded by other people. In your experience, and with the clients you coach, what are some of those psychological barriers people face on this journey, and how can they overcome them?

Mike: Yeah, I think the biggest one, like I mentioned, is thinking that it's your fault. It's always taking the blame: I didn't try hard enough, I wasn't disciplined enough, I didn't have enough willpower. Without ever considering the method. Without ever considering that maybe it was the diet, maybe it wasn't the right fit for you. It's like when you're dating and trying to find the right person, and a lot of times we're just like, oh, it must have been me. There's another person involved. And your nutrition is kind of like another relationship. There's another entity involved that does have some responsibility there.

So I think that's a big one. We always assume it's our fault, instead of asking, is this actually the right fit for me? Is this the right approach for me? Or maybe I've been trying to place myself into a box I don't belong in. I looked at how other people were working out and eating and what they were doing, and it was always, okay, I need to fit into what this person's doing or what this person says I need to do. Never considering my own individual needs, my own personality, metabolism, lifestyle, the things I want, my values. That all has to play a role. Otherwise, you're going to find yourself consistently starting over.

And unfortunately, that builds an expectation of failure. Because you've gone through it so many times, the next time you're subconsciously like, okay, here we go again, I know how this plays out. And you might sabotage yourself before you even get started. Somebody can find the right path. They can work with a coach who has a truly personalized approach, who knows what they're doing and can give them the best-laid plan. But because they've been burned so many times in the past, there's this subconscious voice saying, I'm going to fail anyway, so I'm going to sabotage before it happens, not even listen and not even follow through, because I know how this plays out.

There's no easy answer for how to break out of that, other than you've got to ask yourself difficult questions and challenge your existing thoughts and beliefs. There are two things I always say that changed my life and changed a lot of our clients' lives. Number one: recognize that not every thought you have is fact. We have thousands of thoughts a day, so it would be ridiculous to assume they all are. But we do that. We have a thought and we're like, oh, it must be true because I thought it. Most of our thoughts are not based in truth. They're not based in fact.

Number two is that your emotions don't need to be immediately acted upon. If you can learn those two things, my thoughts are not always fact, and when I have an emotion it's okay to just sit with it and not do anything about it right away, it puts you in the driver's seat. Let me just sit there and chill with it for a second, process it, and then decide how I want to respond. That's really where you can start to see massive shifts happening in your identity, your belief system, how you handle adversity, how you handle failure, how you handle setbacks. It completely changes everything.

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Damn. That was such a powerful response, dude. Rewind the last three to five minutes. I love that. I want to dive a little deeper into the thoughts and emotions concept. And when you dropped the word failure, I was like, that was going to be my next question. People try things and feel like they fail because they don't follow through. They're setting themselves up for failure beforehand. So how do you approach a one-on-one client who has these thoughts and emotions, who's freaking out because they're not where they want to be, or who's already self-sabotaging beforehand? How do you approach that with them one-on-one?

Hey, I just want to drop a huge appreciation to you guys listening to the show. It means a lot. I hope you're enjoying it, and there's so much more to come. If you are enjoying it, hit the subscribe button. I'd appreciate that tons, and it would help this podcast reach others who need to hear these messages too.

Mike: Yeah, so it's asking them the uncomfortable questions they don't want to ask themselves. This is something I learned when I went through therapy. I think therapy is really valuable for most people, and for some reason there's a stigma around it that we need to get rid of. You don't have to be broken to go to therapy, and it's one of the most useful tools for learning to process things like this.

We have this tendency as humans where the minute we have an uncomfortable thought, it hits a wall and we shut it down. We're like, oh no, I don't want to go there. The minute we think about failure, or not being good enough, or a relationship ending, or getting fired from a job, the minute that uncomfortable thought comes up, we shut it down. Nope, don't go there. I'm going to push the beach ball underwater. And the more you try to hold that beach ball underwater, the more it's going to explode up with more force.

Nikkiey: That's such a good analogy.

Mike: And that's what we do, right? Because we're afraid to go past the wall. But everything you're searching for is past that wall. It's being able to go beyond that and follow the thread of, well, what does that mean? Okay, let's say you do fail. Let's say you do self-sabotage. What does that actually mean? What does that say about you? Because there's a story attached to it. If we strip away all the emotion and context, factually speaking, a human ate food. That's the fact. But we interpret it as, I failed because I ate foods that were off limits. Okay, tell me why you think those foods are off limits. Well, because somebody told me they were. Okay, is that serving you? Is that a belief you want to continue? Has it helped you on your journey? Has it hurt you? Keep asking the difficult questions.

Or there's some kind of belief like, when I was younger, if I failed, that meant I got punished. Or when I got a bad grade, my parents yelled at me. So all of a sudden there's a connection to something else. It's not about the thing you did. It's about what you attach it to from childhood or from your upbringing. But we're so afraid to go past that uncomfortable thought or feeling that we shut it down and push the beach ball underwater.

So what we do with our clients is ask those uncomfortable questions, because then we get to the core of the issue. And usually they come to their own conclusion that it's actually not that bad. When people think about a relationship ending, they're like, well, I don't want that to happen. Okay, let's say it does happen. What are you going to do? Well, I'll be sad. Are you going to grieve the relationship? Yes. Okay, and then what? Well, I don't know, then I'll try to find somebody else. Great. Do you think there's anybody else out there in the world who may be a good fit for you? Yeah, probably. Okay. So once you go past that uncomfortable thing, it's actually not that bad. The worst-case scenario is usually not that bad.

Sometimes, as a funny exercise, we'll come up with the worst-case scenario. I do this all the time. I was so afraid of my business failing, and my therapist was like, what happens if that happens? What's your backup plan? I was like, I don't know. I could go back to bartending. I used to coach tennis, and I'm playing a lot of tennis now, so I could do that again. She's like, cool, now we have our backup plan. The worst-case scenario is you go back to bartending or you go back to coaching tennis, and you're totally fine. And I was like, yeah, you're right, it's actually not that big of a deal.

So we'll do that with our clients. Let's come up with the worst-case scenario. Hey, this didn't work. Great, let's try something else. We're still in the same spot. No worse, no better. It's actually not that big of a deal. So my long-winded answer is that we ask the difficult questions people are afraid to ask themselves.

Nikkiey: Man, I love that so much. That's so good. So strong. Okay, so once you get there with the client, that's a huge step. Not a lot of people can break down that wall, and clients usually can't accept it quickly enough for you to focus on the next step. But once this is understood and the client can get there with you, I would say the next step is behavior change. Am I right there?

Mike: Yeah, 100%. It's, how do you want to respond? Let's say the situation happens again. In your ideal scenario, how do you respond? Because you're trying to become somebody. You're trying to become this next version of yourself. How does that person respond in those situations? Now we have that guiding light. Okay, now we know the person you want to become responds like this. So the next time this feeling comes up, we're not going to immediately react to it, because we know we've got to sit with the emotion. We're not going to immediately respond to a negative emotion. We're going to let it sit for a second. Okay, what is this telling me? Got it. What do I want to tell it? And how do I want to respond? Now you're in control. Oh, now I remember. The person I want to become does this instead.

Is it always going to be perfect? Of course not. You're going to have moments where you immediately react to the emotion, but you're going to remember it. You're going to be like, oh shit, I was reactive there. It's okay. I recognize it. Now I have even more awareness, and next time I'm going to be more prepared. I'm going to take that pause. I'm going to count to 10. I'm going to leave the room. I'm going to come back. I'm going to sit with it. And then I'm going to decide how I want to respond based on the person I want to become and how that person responds in these situations. That's where the behavior change happens. The more frequently you do that, it's just like anything. Reps over time create the habit. That creates the identity shift. That creates the change you want.

Nikkiey: This is so damn good. Okay, so for people who are listening, how long do you think this takes a client on average?

Mike: It's totally dependent on the person. We've had people who are like, I've never processed things like this, this is totally crazy, and it makes so much sense. And they just take it and run with it. That's all they needed: permission to be human. We're going to give you permission to fail and use it as feedback and as a learning opportunity. Hey, you know what? It's okay. This is how you've responded in the past, but that doesn't have to be your reality. So some people grasp the concept and run with it. For others, and people hate when I say this, sometimes it takes six months, 12 months, longer. It really depends on how deeply ingrained these behavior patterns are, and it's slowly chiseling away at it. It's small, incremental progress over time. Some people can take it and run with it. With some people, we've got to have that slow, methodical progress, and it can take a year or longer in some cases.

Nikkiey: Yeah, that's so good. Like I mentioned to you before we hopped on this recording, and now listening to you even more, your thoughts, your articulation, the breakdown of all of this, which is hard for most people to grasp at the deep level you're explaining it at, I didn't realize how much our messages and our standpoint on fitness and nutrition align. It's so cool to talk to somebody else who's so like-minded in this sense.

I always talk about the tip of the iceberg, what people go after in the nutrition and fitness space. It's macros, workouts, the tactical things people can get results with. However, if you want to go further and have a more sustainable, realistic, happy and joyful journey, you've got to address the bottom of the iceberg, which is these thoughts. Allowing yourself to process why you have this thought process around food. Maybe it was the way you were brought up, because your mom was on a diet and you saw her dieting, and you didn't have the ability to process it until now that you're being asked these questions. Where is this even coming from? This is such a good fucking topic that we're diving into right now. I always joke that we have the name fitness coaches, but at some level we're also a therapist, a life coach, all of these things. Do you agree?

Mike: I do. The mindset stuff is what makes it sustainable. Because again, with the tactics, anybody can follow something for a short period of time. But if you don't have that core identity shift, this is who I am now, I am somebody who eats quality food, I am somebody who moves my body, I am somebody who wants to be strong, if that doesn't become who you are, then the tactics and the methods will be fleeting. It'll be short-lived.

One client in particular comes to mind. When I first got started, I really started diving into the psychology of it, cognitive behavioral therapy and all these things. She had a connection with certain comfort foods that she could not stop overindulging in. When we got to the core of it, she grew up in a very hectic upbringing with no stability. There was no pillar in her life where she knew this person was going to be there for her. Everything was constantly on the move. People would abandon her. A lot of trauma. And the food was the comfort. The food was the predictability. This thing is always here for me. For her, it provided stability.

So we had to break down what else in her life she could use for stability and comfort outside of food. And then she was able to replace it. Oh, there are actually a lot of things now, as an adult, that I can use as pillars in my life, where I don't have to lean on comfort food for the certainty or predictability or stability I'm searching for. I can find it in other places.

I've heard psychologists talk about this all the time. I have a really good friend who's a therapist, and my oldest sister is a therapist. When you find the connection to something, it changes things. They had a client who was an alcoholic, and his dad passed away at a young age. He made the connection that alcohol was the thing that bonded him and his dad. Once they found that connection, it was, is there anything else that connects you to your dad? And once he started to replace it with something more productive, all of a sudden he no longer felt the need to drink.

So there are a lot of psychology principles that go in. I'm always very clear about scope of practice. I'll tell a client if I think they need to actually go see someone. I'll make a recommendation and say, hey, I think this is beyond my scope. But without a doubt, there are certain principles around identity, mindset, belief systems and all of that where we absolutely, as coaches, should have the skill set to at least be that support while they're getting help from a licensed professional.

Nikkiey: Yes, 100%. Okay, I want to circle back a little to where you went with behavior, and then we'll pivot. This is just so good that I want to close the loop on this concept. You have this conversation, the worst-case scenario, you're questioning your client, helping them get past these thoughts and emotions and process them. Then you get to behavior change: the person you want to become, you've got to start acting like that person, get in alignment with that person and start showing up like that person. But the client has to do the work. You're the coach. So can you explain how self-efficacy plays a role in the success of that behavior change? I feel like it's a three-tier thing we're coming up with right now, and this is the final tier: the person has to do it. Can you elaborate?

Mike: Yeah, so there are a couple of things we do. Number one, we identify the gap between the things they're doing now and the things the ideal version of themselves would do. A lot of people are afraid of it, but it's like tracking macros. When you can clearly see, this is how I've been eating versus this is what I should be eating, now you have the roadmap to close the gap. Oh, I've been eating 50 grams of protein a day, and my body actually should be getting 150. I'm not going to rip the Band-Aid off and go from 50 to 150, but I see the roadmap to getting there and closing the gap.

So we do that with behavior. The ideal version of you, how do they handle these situations? What are their actions and habits and rituals? Let's identify what that person does, and then let's identify what you do now. Now we have a gap to fill, and we have a roadmap. But we don't just say, all right, there are 10 things that need to be changed, let's fix them all at once. We let the client decide, in this gap we've identified, what's the easiest one right now? The one you look at and think, I know I could do that every single day.

We actually have them do a commitment card. Make a commitment card to yourself with something nutrition-related, something movement-related, and something mindset-related. We start with the minimum effective dose. There's a sweet spot where it's not so difficult that it's going to frustrate them and not so easy that it's going to bore them. It's that Goldilocks zone. You make those three commitments, you write them down on a commitment card, and you follow through. We're building that self-trust that when you say you're going to do something, you follow through. It's creating that feedback loop. Oh, I made a commitment, and I did it.

And we actually acknowledge it, because now we get into actual habit and behavior change. We need to close the loop with a dopamine hit. That's how our brains work. There's a trigger, there's a behavior, and there's a reward, and the reward is usually our dopamine system. So we have to identify and celebrate when we do something. I'm not talking about throwing yourself a party. It's as simple as, I checked off this thing on my commitment card today. I did it. Task completed. That closes the loop. You get a little dopamine hit, your brain feels happy, and you're like, there we go, I did it. The more you do that, you're basically making deposits into your self-trust bank account.

And now all of a sudden, we can go from these three small commitments to larger commitments and more commitments. We talked about that failure feedback loop, where it's, I'm going to sabotage because I'm going to fail anyway. Now it's a success feedback loop. I say I'm going to do something, and I've done it for however many months. Now I can tackle the next thing and the next thing and the next thing.

But ultimately, it has to be autonomous. We ask the client to identify the things they want to instill. It's not what we want for them. It's what they want for themselves. There has to be that level of agency and autonomy: I want this for myself, so I'm going to work on it because it's important to me. It helps to have a coach reminding you why it's important. Hey, remember when you said this was about being a better mom and showing up for your family? Let's keep that in mind. But ultimately, the work is up to them to follow through.

Nikkiey: Yeah, totally. Love that. You just quoted a bunch of habit books there. What are your favorite habit books that somebody could go listen to or buy right now?

Mike: Yeah. Atomic Habits by James Clear is a classic. And then Tiny Habits by BJ Fogg, I think. That's another really good one.

Nikkiey: Tiny Habits. Cool. I have Atomic Habits back there. I think I've read and listened to it 10, 15, 20 times. Such a good book. I heard you talking about the feedback loop and all of that. And also, every action you take is a vote toward your future self. So I love that. Good stuff.

All right, let's pivot. Macros. You mentioned the word there. Your podcast is Mind Over Macros. We're on The WarriorBabe Show. Why do you love macros? Touch a little bit on that.

Mike: Yeah. I'm a big believer that awareness precedes change. If you want to change something, you should first take inventory of where things currently are. Macros have such a weird reputation, because a lot of times people will say it's disordered or it's stressful. It's none of those things. It's a tool. It doesn't have feelings or emotions. It's just a thing we can use to help ourselves. So I think sometimes we have to be careful about how we communicate certain things, because we start to create a false narrative based on the way we perceive something.

But it's literally awareness. If I wanted to save more money and I started taking inventory of where I was spending and how much I'm making, and I started to look at my budget, nobody would ever call that disordered. It's just awareness. If I have a goal of more money in my bank account, I should probably know where I'm spending and how much I'm making. If I want to change my body, if I want to look a certain way, feel a certain way, perform a certain way, we're talking about food, so that's what we're measuring. Yes, there are other things involved, like strength training and movement and stress management and sleep. But all of it can be measured. All of it can start from a place of awareness. Oh, you're only sleeping four hours a night? Great, now we have a starting point. Let's try for five hours, then six. It's the same concept. Any process of change has to start from a place of awareness. And macros, up until this point, are the most effective way to be aware of what you're currently consuming and to see where the gap exists between where you are and where you need to be.

Nikkiey: Yeah, so good. I love that little plug, up until this point. Scientifically, it makes the most sense. This whole conversation is so good. So with that being said, awareness. But so many people feel so daunted by the process of macros. How can you speak to them to make them feel more comfortable and confident that the process is worth it?

Mike: Yeah, so pull from all the past experiences in your life. You've probably lived a pretty full life up until this point, regardless of how old you are. We've worked with clients from 18 to 74, I think. So it doesn't matter. You've got life experience under your belt. Think about what happened the first time you started a new job. You probably weren't the most proficient. You didn't know the ins and outs of the office dynamic, how the software worked, how the company likes to do things. There was a learning curve. The first time you learned a language, you were probably pretty bad at it at first, and you kept practicing and kept practicing, and then you became fluent. The first time you tried to play an instrument, you probably didn't know what you were doing. The first time you stepped foot in a gym.

We have life experience to pull from. This is no different. We learn the same way. Even back to a time you don't remember, when you were learning how to walk, and you kept getting up and falling down and getting up and falling down, and you didn't think, you know what, walking just isn't for me. You just kept going. We've got to get back to our little toddler roots and understand that it's just like everything else we do in life. There will be a learning curve, and then it becomes like walking. You don't have to think about it. I can tell you it takes me zero mental energy to track my macros, because now it's just like walking.

So accept that in the beginning it's going to be uncomfortable, that there is a learning curve, and that just like everything else, we have to continue to practice. Then we find little shortcuts. We find our groove. We find things that work for us and things that don't. We strip things away, we add things. It's a process, just like everything else. So embrace that, because that's how we do everything as humans, and pull from past experience to know this is no different than the first time you started a new job.

Nikkiey: Mic drop. Everybody, go rewind and listen to that part, because you'll definitely feel more comfortable and confident understanding the process of tracking macros. You too will stumble, fail, fall off your bike, all that stuff. I love the analogies you use. I love the one with the training wheels. You take them off, you're still going to hit bumps in the road and you may fall off, and then you're fully riding the bike and it gets easier and easier and easier. Love that.

So yesterday, because I was on your podcast yesterday, and thanks for having me on there again, by the way, you mentioned very subtly that you're in your stage of flexibility. Can you discuss the importance of that stage for yourself, especially in a dieting aspect or when someone's on a journey, and how being too rigid can completely hinder progress?

Mike: Yeah, for me, flexibility is where I'm currently not tracking macros, but because I've done it for so long, I have a lot of awareness around how much I'm eating. I don't have to question, am I getting enough protein? Am I eating enough? Because I've been doing it for so long. But it's nice to be able to eat a little more freely. In this season of flexibility, I'm probably eating out a little more than I normally would. It's not a lot, but maybe two times a week, versus when I'm actively dieting, when it's probably one or zero. I can go out with my friends for a couple of drinks and not feel any type of way about it. I just know what that looks like, where I can maintain a certain level of leanness that I hold myself to.

This is just personal preference. I always say your goals have to be your goals. Nobody said you have to walk around shredded. It's very difficult to do, and I learned that the hard way, because when you get to a certain level of leanness, you think, oh, this is going to be easy to maintain. But you've got to find what I call the lifestyle level of leanness that makes sense for you, based on how you want to look, how you want to feel, and what level of flexibility you want.

I love food. I love to try restaurants and different foods and go out. And I know a lot of people frown upon a nutrition coach drinking alcohol, but I actually enjoy alcohol. At this point it's probably once every other week, when I'll have two or three drinks if I go out to dinner or whatever. I enjoy being able to still work out three days a week, play tennis a couple of times a week, not track my food, and maintain a certain level of leanness. That feels good for me. Am I at the place where I'm super fit and confident? I know I could be leaner. I've been a lot leaner before. But this is what I call the lifestyle level of leanness, where I'm happy, I have a high degree of flexibility, and if I ever want to turn it on, I know how to turn it on.

Nikkiey: Facts. I love that. That's so real, raw and honest. That is the sustainable aspect of a lifestyle while still being healthy and working out. I think it's important to highlight that because I'm in the same boat. Living flexibly and being able to intuitively eat, because the awareness part is already there. Versus what you experienced, saying no and living that rigid lifestyle, which can actually hurt your progress in terms of the values you live up to for yourself and what you expect with family and relationships.

And then highlighting the alcohol side of things. Some people enjoy that, and that's okay. Your goal is your goal, whatever it is. But you said once every other week with only two or three drinks. Somebody else's alcohol could be completely different, where they're having wine every single freaking night and wondering why they're not seeing the results they want. So I love that. And you are you, and this is how you live your life. I think about Jordan Syatt when speaking to this. He's not ripped, but he can speak at the highest level about fitness and nutrition, call people out and be honest about it. Everybody has their own picture of their sustainable approach to fitness.

Mike: Yeah. One thing I think is really important to add for context: there are certain things I've built up as a foundation that are second nature, so much so that I didn't even think about them when you asked the question, because they're just part of my life now. I don't ever have to question whether I'm getting in enough protein. That's something a lot of people struggle with. It's just a daily habit for me that I'm always eating protein. It doesn't take up any of my mental energy.

Getting 10,000 steps a day. I walk a lot. I always look for opportunities to walk and move my body, every single day. If I'm under, I don't look at it, I don't care. I just know that getting a lot of steps and movement is a foundational habit. Prioritizing my sleep. Do not fuck with my sleep routine. It is always in place. I need to be in bed at a certain time, and I know when I'm waking up every morning. I do not mess around with my sleep. Drinking enough water. I've got my water right here. It's just part of my life now, so much so that I literally don't have to think about it. But that was years of doing it over and over and over.

So when I say flexibility, it's with the understanding that there's a strong base of foundational habits that have been in place for a really long time. If I skip a week at the gym, not a big deal. If I overindulge over a weekend because I'm having some fun and want to eat freely and drink a little more than I normally do, it's not a big deal, because I always have these habits in place.

Nikkiey: Fucking amen, man. I'm so happy you circled back to that, because that's so true. You have so many strong foundational habits you've built over the years that they're almost like your non-negotiables. You make sure you hit those on a daily basis, especially the sleep. I'm the same way. I need nine hours of sleep a night, and nobody be fucking with me on that.

Cool. Now I would love to hear your favorite misconception in fitness and nutrition, what's going on in the industry. What's your favorite one, and can you debunk it for us?

Mike: Yeah, there are so many to choose from. I would say the biggest one is about the sacrifices you have to make. It's tough, because we humans love to swing to either end of the extreme. We're so uncomfortable in the middle. We're so uncomfortable in the gray. We love for things to be black and white. On one end, you have people saying you have to cut carbs and cut sugar and seed oils are going to kill you, and there's all this fear-mongering about the things you have to sacrifice. On the other end of the spectrum, you have people saying you can literally eat whatever you want and still look exactly how you want, you can get shredded and eat whatever. The answer is in the middle, and I find both messages harmful to a certain extent.

No, carbs are not going to kill you. No, seed oils are not going to kill you. There are certain foods that are more nutritionally dense than others, but if you're consuming mostly whole, quality food sources, it's totally fine to have some processed foods in there. The 80/20 rule: 80% quality, 20% flexible. And with the message that you can eat whatever you want and still look the way you want, I think the intent behind it is that you can incorporate foods you want and still look the way you want. Not that you can eat whatever you want. Because to your point, people are like, I don't understand, I'm drinking wine every day, but Tommy Tough Nuts on the internet said I could drink wine and still get shredded. The answer is in the middle. You have to make sacrifices, but you don't have to be miserable. There are certain things you'll probably have to cut back on, but you don't have to eliminate carbs. You don't have to eliminate alcohol. You don't have to eliminate sugar or oils or whatever somebody is trying to scare you into getting rid of. It's just not the case.

So there's that one. And then there's the cardio myth, that cardio is the best way to lose fat and burn calories.

Nikkiey: Talk a little more on that. I need to hear this answer.

Mike: It falls short in just about every scientific way possible. First of all, you're not burning as many calories during cardio as you probably think. It's probably a lot less. And as you do more cardio, your body gets more efficient at it. Let's say you've never run a mile. You run a mile, and it's probably going to take a lot of mental and physical energy. You'll burn some calories. But then you keep running the mile, and your brain and your body get really in sync and more efficient, your muscles fire more efficiently, and all of a sudden the amount of calories it takes to run that mile is less and less and less.

You're also prioritizing a manual burn of calories versus prioritizing your metabolism and your muscle. If you're not using your muscles by lifting heavy shit, your body has no reason to keep them around, because muscle is an expensive tissue to maintain. It takes a lot of calories to maintain muscle on your body. So if you're not using it, your body's like, hey, we should probably break this down and use it for energy, because why do we need these muscles? Cardio can send that signal, and you end up with a slower metabolism and a worse physique, while you're actually not burning as many calories as you think.

Nikkiey: Let's go. Are you in my brain? I literally just did a podcast on that exact breakdown a couple of episodes ago, and you just articulated it so fucking well. Thank you. You're either training your body to optimize for cardiovascular endurance or to optimize for strength. Whatever your goal is, it's your goal. If you want to be a marathon runner, optimize your body for cardiovascular health and running tons and tons of miles. But if you want muscle, which I think is the majority of our demographic who listens to us and follows us, they want to build more muscle and have a stronger metabolism. That's weight training. Muscle is the active tissue that never stops, that needs fuel, that needs energy. So you want to optimize your body for that.

Mike: Yeah, completely. Do cardio because you love to do cardio, or if you want to maintain a certain level of cardiovascular health. A lot of people push back. They're like, but I love swimming. I'm like, great, you should swim as much as you want. It just doesn't change the facts. It doesn't change the fact that strength training is better for your metabolism, for bone health, for heart health. There are so many health benefits to it. Do cardio because you love cardio and because you want to improve cardiovascular health. But if your goal is body composition, if you want to look the part, improve your metabolism, get leaner, toned, more athletic, strength training should be the primary focus. And then do whatever you want in terms of enjoyment.

Nikkiey: Amen. I just started running yesterday. I ran 2.6 miles for the first time in probably years.

Mike: That sounds terrible.

Nikkiey: I do it for my cardiovascular health, though. But you won't find me trying to run half marathons or marathons, or even six miles. That's pushing it.

Mike: Yeah. But the fact that you can just go out and run 2.6 miles after not doing it shows that you have that base level of endurance and health from strength training and maintaining a certain level of fitness. That's how I feel. For life, we should be able to pull ourselves up or get ourselves physically out of a tough situation because we've been training our muscles. And everybody should be able to walk outside and go run a mile without really struggling that much. That's where you've found that good balance. Obviously it'll take people different lengths of time to get there, but it's a worthy pursuit when it comes to overall health.

Nikkiey: Amen. Yeah, love that. You should be able to do that with ease. It was no problem. I jumped on the treadmill in the morning and ran 2.6 in 27 minutes. I didn't stop to take a break or put my feet on the side of the treadmill. I just did it. And I hadn't done that in, I don't know, a year and a half, two years. So I love it for the ease. Good freaking stuff.

Okay, one last question for you. If there was one piece of advice for somebody just starting their fitness journey or their weight loss journey, especially people who have tried and struggled in the past and are trying to start again, what would that one piece of advice be?

Mike: Get rid of the timeline. Stop treating this like there's a finish line. Stop looking for the fastest path to whatever result. Buckle up and do this shit for life. If you just have that frame of reference, can I do this forever, and do I want to do this forever, that's going to answer most of your questions. Oh, do I really have to fast until 2 p.m.? Do you want to do that forever? No. Okay, then you don't have to do it. It doesn't make sense, right?

Do this shit for life. Get rid of that finish line, get rid of the timeline, and truly treat this as a forever pursuit. It's an infinite game. The whole point of fitness is to just keep playing the game. There are certain things in life where you win the game just by playing. There are no defined rules. There's no end game. There's no final score. You're literally just playing to keep playing. So just keep doing it. You're going to fail. You're going to find things that don't work. That's great. That's information. That's feedback. Okay, this doesn't work for me, let me try this over here.

The only way you lose is if you quit, and the only reason you quit is because your expectations are on a certain timeline that doesn't exist. There is no finish line. It's never over. So you don't have to stress. It's fine. Oh, this month didn't go so well. Great, we've got plenty more months to get our shit together and improve. Use that as feedback. What can I improve on? What daily habits do I want to try this month? Am I going to do this forever? Yeah. Take that mindset. If you can truly make that mental reframe, this whole process becomes way more enjoyable, way less stressful, and your success is inevitable.

Nikkiey: Love that, Mike. Such good stuff in this podcast. Thank you so much for your time, your energy, your explanations, the breakdown of things. That three-step process: first you understand this, then the next thing is behavior change, and the next thing is you've got to do the work. And then why macros are bomb. So many golden nuggets in this podcast. Thank you so much. I could continue to talk to you on and on about all of these things, and I'm sure people want to keep listening to you. So where can they find you?

Mike: Yeah, I appreciate it. My podcast is called Mind Over Macros, and it's on any podcast platform. If you search Mind Over Macros, you'll find me. I talk about a lot of self-development and mindset, but also nutrition, fitness, that sort of thing. Forewarning: if you're easily offended and you don't like real, direct, blunt conversations, you probably won't like the show. But if that's your jam, give it a listen. And on Instagram, my handle is @coach_mike_millner, two L's in Millner. Those are all the places you can find me.

Nikkiey: Amazing. Well, these guys definitely love a direct, no-bullshit approach, so they'll definitely enjoy your podcast. Definitely check it out, you guys, and all the links will be in the description below. Mike, thanks so much for being here. I appreciate it.

Mike: Thanks for having me.

Nikkiey: Real quick, the only ask I could ever have of you guys is to help spread the word so we can help more women lose body fat, build muscle, reach their goals, and feel insanely confident. And the only way we can do that is if you rate, review, and share this podcast. So the single thing I ask you to do is leave a review. It will take you 10 seconds, and it will mean the absolute world to me and may change the world of someone else.