Is It Too Late to Build Muscle After 50?

Susan: Every single one of us should be focused on building strength and muscle. And that doesn't mean you have to be a bodybuilder. And I think that's another thing that we get in our head, that we're going to get big and bulky, like the Hulk or something like that. And I got to tell you, that ain't going to happen.

Nikkiey: What's up, you guys, welcome back to The WarriorBabe Show, or if you are new, welcome to the show. Today you are all in for a special treat. We have another inspiring guest here with us, the owner of Susan Niebergall... I'm not butchering that, am I? Niebergall Fitness. Okay. And co-coach with the awesome Jordan Syatt in the Inner Circle. Susan is a woman who empowers all women, and all people really, to know that they can get fit at any age and it's never too late. And that's also the name of her incredible book, you guys. We'll dive into all those amazing things. But at 62 years young, she has a rocking body, such an incredible body. And I'm excited to have her here on the show with us today to share her story and so many good insights that I feel like are just going to come from this podcast. So welcome to the show, Susan.

Susan: Thank you. Wow. Thank you for all that, by the way. And the name, great, Niebergall. I've been called all kinds of things. So it's good.

Nikkiey: I'm glad I didn't butcher it.

Susan: And thank you for having me. I'm really looking forward to having this conversation.

Nikkiey: Amazing. Cool. So Susan, tell us a little bit more about you and what you do.

Susan: So I am an online strength coach. I have a business called Susan Niebergall Fitness, which is where I started in the online industry. And I'm also running the Inner Circle with Jordan Syatt. He and I run a big online fitness community together. And that's currently the status of what I'm doing right now. I'm not really doing too much one-on-one stuff, as most of my coaching is all in the Inner Circle. And that's my focus. You know, it's kind of interesting, life just takes you in different directions and you focus on different things at different times. And that's kind of where I'm at right now. And I'm loving every single second of it.

Nikkiey: Amazing. Awesome. So we were catching up here before we hopped into actually hitting the record button for you guys. But you shared that you've made every mistake in the book with fitness, but you were able to turn it around in your 50s. So do you mind sharing what those mistakes were and how you turned it around?

Susan: Wow. Where do I begin on this? To back up for a second, I have always been on the heavy side. I've never been obese, but I've always had weight to lose, always, since I was a kid up through young adulthood, and never understood how to do it. And as a young adult, I went to Jenny Craig, which I just heard today is shutting its doors permanently as of this week, which is crazy because they've been around for almost 40 years.

Nikkiey: Wow.

Susan: Those of you that are my age, you know exactly who Jenny Craig is. But for those of you that may not, it is a meal plan company where you buy their food and eat it and then you lose weight. And essentially, that's what happened with me. And when you do that, on the surface this is great, right? I lost all this weight. But the issue is, at least back then, I learned nothing about what I was doing. I didn't know how much I was eating. I just ate the food on this little tray that they told me to eat. And I was hungry all the time. That's pretty much what I learned. I lost the weight. And of course, I couldn't keep it off. I had no idea how to keep it off. And the only way after that I knew to lose weight was to basically eat virtually nothing and be hungry all the time. That was in my brain.

So that's the first big mistake, thinking that I have to reduce my calories to next to nothing in order to lose weight. I think other mistakes I've made throughout the years were thinking I couldn't eat fat. That dietary fat was the same fat that's in my body, and I can't eat it because if I eat it, it's going to turn to fat. Fat was bad. So we went through the whole no-fat time. Carbs were in and out as the devil. You know, they've always been the devil, poor carbs. If you really think about it, carbs never get a break, and they haven't had a break in 40 years.

Nikkiey: I know.

Susan: Right. So I've made that mistake. I did stuff like Slim Fast. I went through a big, long period of Slim Fast. And I thought, well, I'm just going to pair Cheerios or some healthy cereal with it. And that was my thing for so long. Way back in the day I also took these appetite suppressants. They looked like little chocolate candies, and I think they were called Ayds, A-Y-D-S. Somebody told me that because I couldn't remember. And they were nothing more than pieces of chocolate, essentially. They did absolutely nothing.

And then I think another mistake I made over the years is being a clean eater. There's nothing wrong with eating nutrient-dense foods and being aware of that. But I would only eat that, for fear that if I ate anything else, I was going to lose my progress or get fat. That's where I was with it. I think that's where a lot of us have been with clean eating, like I can't eat outside of my little clean food bubble.

Those are the ones that come up top of my head right away. And they're very common. I think a lot of people have tried something like Jenny Craig, or did low fat or low carb or no carb or this diet or that diet or whatever. We've all done these things. And my message is just, it doesn't matter how many times you mess up or how many mistakes you've made. You can always turn it around.

Nikkiey: Yeah. I love that so much. And especially coming from what you grew up with, like Jenny Craig and Slim Fast, and I think Weight Watchers was in there too. Women connected with that message and that marketing, right? Let's get skinny. Let's look skinny. Let's eat this diet to get skinny. And it's not any woman's fault, or your fault, that you tried all of those things. That's just what was known back then.

Susan: It was. Skinny was the thing. That word in particular. I wanted to be skinny my whole life. And the irony is, when I started changing my body around, I lost a lot of weight and built this muscle. I was skinny. And that was only four or five years ago. I liked it for a time because I felt like I finally got there. But I look back and I'm going, wow, you were thin. Then I got deemed skinny fat, right? All of those terms.

Nikkiey: All of that. So then, okay, you were in those mistakes. Talk to us about the latter half of your journey and where you are now at 62. What made you turn it around? What were the strategies? What were the things that you started implementing?

Susan: I think the biggest thing was I stopped blaming everything else for my lack of success. I was queen of that.

Nikkiey: Queen of that. Yeah.

Susan: Right. I blamed my age. I blamed menopause. I would blame I don't even know what. I was constantly a victim. And because of that, I never really made any progress. And I think I kept in that cycle for so long because it's hard to face the truth. It's hard to be honest with yourself and tell yourself, you know what, you have not been doing what you need to do to reach the goal that you want to reach. For decades. Not just, oh yeah, last month you screwed up. No, for the majority of your life. And that is more than a pill to swallow. It really took a lot of reflection and acceptance, and accepting that I'm not an idiot, because I was like, what an idiot, I've done all this for so long and none of it was the direction I should be going in. But in fairness, it was what we knew back then. It was the information we were getting.

So I went and had the doctor's appointment, who confirmed that all my bloodwork was fine. I don't have a low thyroid. I don't have a low metabolism. I blamed all of those things that can be under menopause. And when my last scapegoat was gone, I couldn't really blame it on that. That's when I had to start looking at myself. And it was a hard pill to swallow. It took a little bit of time. But when I did, I started making small little changes. I didn't even track. I just paid attention to how much I was eating, because that ultimately was the problem. And so I made small changes there.

I was working with some trainers along the way. I loved working out in the gym. I wanted to do powerlifting. And that's when I hired Jordan as my personal coach, and we started working together maybe when I was 55, somewhere in there. It's been a long time. We were just talking about this the other day. So 55-ish, something like that. And from that moment on, everything changed. I became a student. I became a great student. You tell me to jump six feet, I'm jumping six feet. You tell me to send you videos, I'm sending you videos. I do what I'm told to do. And I finally had structure. And I started reading and watching everything that he put out, and it made so much sense.

While I didn't go to him for nutrition, we ended up working on nutrition a little bit as we went along. But I usually did the nutrition he would put out in his Inner Circle. I joined it in the very early days as a member, and I would just implement stuff from there. And he was coaching me, and he took me through a whole different way of working out where progress and everything just kind of catapulted from there. And along the way I'm learning, I'm relearning things. You have to unlearn some things and you have to relearn other things.

And I guess a big takeaway for me was that the emotion that's tied to all of these things for us, from decades, is still there for me. The scale fluctuations are a great example. I hate it when I see the scale go up. It's emotional for so many of us. Because in my generation, we didn't talk about fluctuations. We didn't know anything about that. It went up, that's bad. It goes down, that's good. That's what we knew. So to this day, when it goes up, I still get a little kick in the gut. But the difference now is I have control over the emotion. I don't let the emotion ruin everything, because I understand it now. I didn't for 40 years. So I think that's a big difference. We still have the emotion. I don't think it's ever going to go away. But we learn how to manage it and can move on. It's just like, okay, I don't like that. Okay, whatever.

Nikkiey: Yes. Oh my God. Everything that you just said there, to unpack it really quick. First, you spoke of the victim mentality, and I love that you broke through and started taking ownership and responsibility for your actions, because you're the one in control of everything, right?

Susan: Yeah.

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The second thing to unpack there is that you hired an amazing coach, and there are so many benefits to working with a good coach. And the last thing that I love is the scale. I was on your Instagram checking out your page, which I love, by the way. And there was a post that you shared on that as well, which I love, because one of the pillars that I talk about with the scale is, let me first figure out behaviorally where we're at with this human. How are you connected to the emotions of the scale? Do you step on it and your emotions fluctuate, so if it goes down you feel great and if it goes up you feel negative? And then if we can get past that, we can use it as just a tool, which is what you're talking about. And what I saw on your Instagram was the data points, right? So can you share with the audience, when you're using the scale and wanting to attach it to progress, what it would look like at 30 days, like you shared in your post?

Susan: Sure. I'm a big proponent of weighing in every day. And I know a lot of people are like, oh, I don't want to weigh in every day. But I'll tell you what, I think you're doing yourself a real disservice if you don't. Because if you think about it, over the course of 30 days, if you weigh in every single day, you have 30 or 31 data points that you can step back and look at and graph. And a lot of these apps graph it for you right now. You can see a trend line. Is the trend line going down? Is it going up? Is it lying flat? You have so many data points to look at.

So if you go to once a week, which tends to be a really popular alternative with people, here's the big problem with once a week. You weigh in on a Friday. That's weigh-in day. It now sits on a pedestal. It's an event. It's not part of your everyday life. It is now an event. And let's say weigh-in day is Friday and it's Tuesday, and you've gotten off track a little bit and you're not feeling great about where you are, and you know you have to step on the scale in two days. Guess what you're probably going to do for the next two days? You're not going to do what your plan is, that's for sure. You're going to change everything. You're going to overly restrict, maybe do a lot more exercising, cardio, whatever, just so the scale will read a number that you think is favorable. And so what you've done is completely negate the value of that weigh-in. It means absolutely nothing anymore, because you've changed everything just to try to dictate what that scale is going to do. You're trying to take control of it. And the irony is that you can't control it. It's impossible to control.

It's also a problem because if you weigh in on Friday and let's say it's up a pound, what you don't see is what happened since last Friday. You don't see that the trend line is actually going down. You just happened to step on it on a Friday that you're holding on to some water for whatever reason, and there are a million reasons why our bodies hold on to water. And so you're thinking, oh wow, I gained a pound of fat. That's another thing, you don't gain fat that fast. You're thinking you gained a pound of fat when in essence you really didn't. You're just holding on to some water, and if you had weighed in every single day, you would have seen all the different fluctuations.

So granted, it's hard for someone, again, in my age bracket in particular, but any age bracket, when you are very emotional about that number and you have a lot of history with this. It is tough to remove the emotion. But what I have done with this, and I still do it to this day, if I feel it starting to creep up a little bit, I just say, Susan, shut up. You are fine. You did not eat over 3,500 calories over your maintenance yesterday. I did not do that. So the scale reading today has zero to do with that. I tell myself that once in a while when it gets kind of crazy in my head too.

Nikkiey: I love that.

Susan: And I just feel like we all need to do that. It's an awareness, and it's a little tough love too. You've got to tell yourself to shut up, because if you don't, the emotion that's going on in your head is going to take over. And here's the other thing I like to say. We all have logic voices in our head too, but they're sitting in the back. They're lounging in a La-Z-Boy while the emotions are having fun and messing with you and saying, look, you screwed up, man, your scale's up a pound. You need to tell emotion to shut up, and get the logic voices up off the La-Z-Boy to tell emotion to shut the hell up.

Nikkiey: Yes. Susan, I love it. I love it. I love the directness and bluntness too. That is me, and that's the audience. So they're going to love this.

Susan: That's me too.

Nikkiey: Yes. And Jordan too. You guys are all... I love it. Okay. So all great stuff there. Now, I know that strength and building muscle is something that you love to help your people do. So why is it so beneficial to do those things?

Susan: Wow. Gosh, the list is so long, but the basic stuff is that building strength and muscle is going to lead us all to a much more functional life as we get older. Think grandkids, getting up and down off the floor, going up and down steps, sitting, standing, all those basic life things that we want to be able to do for as long as possible. And not only live longer, but with a quality of life. And that's what strength training will bring to the table. There's so much research out right now that is showing that it's the number one thing for longevity.

Nikkiey: Yes. Dr. Gabrielle Lyon says the organ of longevity is muscle.

Susan: Yes. And Dr. Peter Attia, I almost finished his book. His book is unbelievable about longevity.

Nikkiey: I'm sorry, what's the book title?

Susan: It's called Outlive. It's unbelievable. And it is basically saying that exercise, strength training in particular, is the thing for all of us to be doing. And even if you're not a strength training fan and you'd rather do other things, I get it. That's cool. Do other things. But strength training is too important to not include in some way, shape, or form in what you're doing.

And obviously, it's going to build muscle mass. And when you have muscle mass on you, your quality of life as you get older is going to be much better. It's going to increase the strength of your bones. Bone density can improve. And here's the interesting thing. We can build muscle as we get older too. We used to think we're done building muscle at a certain age. That's not true. Is it harder for us? Yeah, it probably is going to be a little bit harder, but we can always do it. And so it's too important to not even try, especially this bone density thing, which I don't think we talk about enough. How many times have we seen elderly people fall and break a hip?

Nikkiey: You are literally speaking my language right now. I speak about this all of the time. Osteoporosis post-menopause, when all of the estrogen is dropping. As I shared with you, I used to work in the ER, and I was in a long-term nursing care facility for nine years. And the amount of people that I saw coming into the hospital with hip fractures from falling, it's scary.

Susan: It's so scary. And first of all, your chances of not falling have gone up dramatically if you're stronger, because you're more stable. But even if you should fall, the chances of you breaking something go down so much, because now you've built up your bone density. So to put it all in a nutshell, I think those are all the reasons why every single one of us should be focused on building strength and muscle. And that doesn't mean you have to be a bodybuilder. I think that's another thing that we get in our head, that we're going to get big and bulky, like the Hulk or something like that. And I got to tell you, that ain't going to happen.

Nikkiey: Exactly.

Susan: I mean, none of us have to worry about that. Ever, ever, ever.

Nikkiey: Yeah, exactly. I think this is just a myth that a lot of women have in their heads, and then social media and all of the things.

Susan: Well, I also think, when people think of strength and muscle, they see a lot of powerlifting. And when you see a lot of strong powerlifting girls, a lot of them are bigger, and they're purposefully bigger. They've done this purposefully to go for their goals. So their nutrition has been shifted very differently than most of us would probably eat, to accommodate their goal. And that's what I feel like so many people see as building muscle, and it's not what building muscle is about. So I think that adds to the problem with the whole bulking thing.

Nikkiey: Yeah, I totally agree. Or the people in the bodybuilding world who admire the bodybuilders on stage, who are probably not entirely all natural. So there's that too. But yeah, you're spot on with what you just said. So when it comes to building muscle and working out, what do you feel are the common mistakes that people make when they're trying to do that? And how can they be avoided?

Susan: Yeah. One common mistake is that people don't follow a program. They're going to an F45 or an Orangetheory and thinking their little weight segment is enough. And I will say this: if you're starting from zero and you like being in that community, do it, do it, do it. But that kind of weight training and a structured, organized strength training program are two very different things. And the results that most people want are going to come from a structured strength training program, which a lot of people don't have.

So that is one mistake: doing all classes and getting frustrated that you're not making the progress you want to see. You're just not doing quite the right kind of training. A structured strength training program is where I think everybody needs to be. And if you're new to it, hire a personal trainer in person to start you, so you have that person there who can show you around the gym, who can show you how to lift appropriately for you and your level, and show you how to do it safely and effectively. And then eventually you can do it on your own, and you can join all kinds of groups and get programs written for you and do it on your own. But I think following a program is one of the biggest. I also think that people aren't lifting enough weight.

Nikkiey: Hey, I just want to drop a huge appreciation to you guys for listening a lot. I hope you guys are enjoying it, and there's so much more to come. If you are enjoying it, hit the subscribe button. I'd appreciate that tons, and it would help this podcast reach others who need to hear these messages too. Thanks so much, guys. Let's get back to the show.

Yes. Say it louder.

Susan: I mean, you're stronger than you think. I guarantee it. It's so funny. I see somebody pick up a 20-pound dumbbell, and I'm using this just as an example, not for anybody to gauge their weight or anything like that.

Nikkiey: Yeah.

Susan: A 20-pound dumbbell, and they're doing a dumbbell row, and those rows are moving, right? They're going fast. Rep number one looks exactly like rep number 10. And they keep using that weight.

Nikkiey: Yes.

Susan: And I'm like, uh-uh.

Nikkiey: You're speaking my language here. Let's go.

Susan: I know, right? It's so frustrating.

Nikkiey: Yeah.

Susan: Don't stick with that weight. If this is me and I use that 20 and I got 10 reps, okay, on that next set I'm going to 25. And if I can get 25, on that next set I'm going to 30. I am pushing the envelope. And then I always get asked, but what if I can't get all of the reps with 25? Okay. So let's say you got five out of 10 with the 25. This is what I do. Not everyone has to do this. I got five out of 10. I'll put down the heavier weight, I'll go get that lighter weight, the 20, and I'm going to finish the reps. I'll do five more.

Nikkiey: I agree.

Susan: Because I need to end at 10.

Nikkiey: Yes.

Susan: It says 10. I want to end at 10. I write in my notes: I did five at 25, five at 20. Now my goal moving forward is to get all of that next set at 25. So I'm constantly pushing the envelope with weight. And I feel like people don't do that enough. That's why most people are not seeing the results they want to see. They're just not pushing themselves enough.

And then the last big mistake is constantly dieting. Constantly trying to lose weight in a calorie deficit, eating virtually nothing, and expecting to be able to build a crap ton of muscle. People are afraid to eat at maintenance, much less a surplus. And I think that's a dieting mindset that was validated over decades. It's something that's going to be hard to combat. It's scary putting up calories when you've fought your whole life to get the scale to go down, and now you're trying to get it to go up. It's a scary thing, but I feel like you have to eat to support your goals too. You can't always be in a calorie deficit and expect to see definition in your muscles.

Nikkiey: Yeah. Love it. Everything that you just said there is 110 percent. I especially love the point about working out and not pushing yourself enough. If you just want to go through the motions, then expect the same type of results that you're getting right now, because ain't nothing going to happen from that. Do you make ugly faces when you work out, Susan?

Susan: All the time. And I make noises a lot of times too. And it's so funny, because on one of the posts I just put up, that was one of the criteria. Are you lifting enough weight? Are you making funny faces? That's not scientific, but I'll tell you, there's a lot of truth behind that actually. Because as I said at the beginning, if rep eight looks very similar to reps one, two, and three, you are doing yourself a disservice.

There are no rules police here. There's no one that's going to say, well, if you can't do all three sets with 25 pounds, you better not even try. There's nobody there saying that. You need to get out of your own way and go pick up that heavier dumbbell. I'm constantly testing the waters. Every time I go to the gym: let me see what I got today. Most of the time I can tell what kind of day it's going to be, because I've done this long enough now. I understand if I don't have the energy, if I'm not feeling it, whatever. But there are some times where, okay, I did this the other day. I tried 50-pound dumbbells on a bench press and I got a couple of reps. I was completely shocked. I haven't done that in a long time. I've been working my way back to that. So you never know, right? You never know. I think we are all stronger than we think.

Nikkiey: Absolutely. A hundred percent. So you touched there on the last mistake that people make, which is nutrition and constantly dieting. So I want to ask you to discuss the importance of proper nutrition when it comes to building muscle.

Susan: So the optimal way to build muscle is eating in what's called a calorie surplus, eating a little bit more than your body needs to maintain its weight. And I think when we hear surplus, or we hear I'm going into a bulking phase, which is awful, by the way, I've never said that, but that's what people call it, we get this idea of, okay, I'm eating everything. I like to call it a building phase. Building sounds better than bulking.

Nikkiey: Building sounds so much better.

Susan: And if we're in a surplus, it's just a smidge more than your maintenance. Maintenance is that amount that you eat where you hover in this little maintenance bubble of anywhere from one to four or five pounds. You just kind of play around in that area. That's where I've been living for years. Same three, four pounds for me. Some people's maintenance range is larger. Others can be a little bit smaller. But we're only talking a smidge over that. We're not talking about hundreds and thousands of calories more that you have to stuff down and feel so full. That's in our head, right? We have taken something and blown it way out of proportion. But I feel like not enough people spend time in maintenance.

Nikkiey: Yes.

Susan: Learning how to live there.

Nikkiey: Maintenance is magic.

Susan: Maintenance is magic. And it's interesting. People don't like it because the word implies you're kind of stagnant, you're just in this maintaining mode. In the Inner Circle, Jordan and I nicknamed it momentum, because we really feel like this is a time where you are building momentum. You're building confidence. You're building nutritional momentum, either to keep going if you want to go into a surplus, or maybe even to go back into a deficit if you're still in that phase, or just to get used to living in this world of maintenance, or momentum. It's a learning stage. And it's the place where you should spend most of your life, to be perfectly honest.

And you can build muscle in this stage. The cool thing is, if you get rid of all these unrealistic expectations and timelines and throw those out the window, maintenance is my preferred way to build muscle, to be honest. Because it's just you living your life, having fun, giving yourself some very specific goals in the gym, working towards those and having fun doing it. That's what it's all about.

Nikkiey: Yes. You're speaking my language, Susan. I love it. Let's go. Maintenance is magic, man. And it's so true. A lot of people think, and I think it's correlated to the diet mindset that a lot of people have, that they have to eat less. They have to be in a deficit. They want to lose the fat, they want to lose the weight. And there's a common question that I get that I would love to ask you: can you build muscle when you're in a deficit?

Susan: There's a lot of nuance to this question, I think. I think everyone wants to lose weight and build muscle. Not everyone, but a lot of people want to do that. And I think it depends on where you're at. If you have a lot of weight to lose, and I'm not going to put a number on that because people get very literal, but if you have a substantial amount of weight to lose, you probably should just stay in a nice, modest deficit and train like you're building muscle.

Nikkiey: Yes.

Susan: And here's the funny thing. Your training's not going to change much, if at all. Train, because you can build some muscle under layers of fat. Yes, you can, especially if you're newer to training. So why wouldn't you try? Why would you not? So if you have a lot of weight to lose, you're better off losing your fat first. And then when you're ready, slowly bring calories back in to where you find your little maintenance bubble. And that's where I would start people. Start building at maintenance first.

If you don't have much weight to lose at all, then I'd say you need to turn that corner right now and get into maintenance. The last five, ten pound kind of people, people get really obsessed with that. And I don't think people understand that what you're going to have to do to lose those last five pounds is not going to be what you did to lose the first five pounds. It's not going to be remotely close. The reins are going to be pulled in tighter. You have hardly any, if any, wiggle room anymore, going out with friends and family, all that. You've got to take a hard look at how much that is really going to be worth it for five pounds.

I always tell people, you're going to be happier if you get your calories to maintenance and shift your focus to building muscle, and get it off of losing weight and nutrition and blah, blah, blah. Keep your maintenance nutrition going, learn to live there, and now give yourself some very specific performance-based goals and start really training, not working out anymore. We're not checking a box. We're training towards something, and that changes everything. And take pictures of yourself while you're doing this, every four weeks, so you can look at the first day compared to, let's say, day 90. You won't see the changes in the mirror as much as you probably would like to, but when you put these pictures side by side you're like, holy crap, I look completely different. Well, you won't in 90 days, but you get the drift. You will see changes that you wouldn't have seen had you not taken them.

So I think it just depends on where the person is. And you can also think of it this way. People say, can I lose weight and build muscle at the same time? You could do a period of a deficit for three months, then three months of muscle building. At the end of six months, you did both. You look at it over a bigger time piece.

Nikkiey: Yes. Great answer. That's all in alignment with the things that we say and speak to over at WarriorBabe. So can we switch back really quick? You talked in that answer about doing almost the boring work inside the gym, where not much in your training is going to change, whether you're losing a significant amount of weight or in general. People think they should go in and change their workout plan tomorrow. You mentioned it earlier too, that not a lot of people just follow a program. They go into the gym and change it up every single day or every single week. So can you talk a little bit about why progressive overload is so important, and why sticking to a program for a long period of time is so important when it comes to the ultimate goal of putting on more muscle?

Susan: Yeah. I think one thing we don't do well generally is track progress in our workouts, right? Especially if you do classes. I mean, how would you really do that in classes? And I tell people, you need to be as attentive to tracking your progress in your workouts as you are with your nutrition. You're weighing your food, you're counting calories, you're doing protein, blah, blah, blah, and you're keeping all the data. But yet you're just going in and working out and going home.

So if you want to make progress over time... we hear progressive overload, and it's basically making progress over time in some way, shape, or form. The most common form is to add weight, but you can add repetitions at the same weight. There are lots of ways to get better. To break it down into something very simple, it just means you're getting better somehow or another. Maybe you're adding more weight, maybe you did another set, whatever it is. But I think we have to keep track of all of this, because how are you going to know how much weight you moved that day? You're not going to have any idea. Wait a minute, was I using 15 or 20? You're really going to hold yourself back from making progress, I think, because you're unsure where you were. So track your workouts and always work to push that envelope in some way, shape, or form. That's progressive overload in my head, right? I'm constantly trying to move it one notch.

And there are going to be days where you can't move it. That's perfectly normal. Training's not linear either. Just like losing weight is not a straight line, getting strong and building muscle is not a straight line either. You're going to have periods where you think nothing's working. My deadlift stayed the same for almost eight months. And so I could have, you know, been fed up. But I didn't stop. I didn't say it's not working. I just kept going.

And that's the simplicity of the building muscle thing. It is kind of simple in concept. All the movements that I do are just basic movement patterns. There's nothing crazy that I have ever done. I do variations of different things here and there, but it's the same movement patterns, and I've been doing that for years. And I've tracked every single one of my workouts, so I could pull up what I started deadlifting with and what I currently deadlift with.

And I think when you're building muscle, the scale is not going to be a big help for us here. It's just not. But pictures, and then tracking our progress and looking: oh my God, I started this program and I could only lift 10 pounds, and I'm ending this program and I've doubled what I lifted. That's what it's about. And how you're going to feel when you start seeing stuff like that, words don't do justice to describe that feeling, I don't think, until you feel it. And then you're like, holy shit. You feel like a badass. It gives you this sense of confidence that goes through your whole life. You will see it in other areas of your life. All of a sudden, you sit a little taller. All of a sudden, you're not afraid to speak your mind. It just permeates everything. And that's significant, especially as we get older, I feel like. That's something we all need.

Nikkiey: A hundred percent. I love that, because it adds even more to what we spoke to earlier about why building muscle is so beneficial. Muscle is the organ of longevity, it makes you live longer, you get to be running around with your grandkids, all of the things. But even for you as a human, you gain so much confidence. You feel so good. You have newfound energy from eating right, fueling your body the right way, lifting some weight and challenging yourself. It's you versus you in that moment. Either you're going to pick up the weight and challenge yourself to move it, or you're going to stay stagnant and just go through the motions. So which one do you want to choose?

Susan: Yeah, exactly. And I also want to add, building muscle takes more time than losing fat. It really does. And I understand it can be frustrating for a lot of people, because you don't have the validation that we all like to have as human beings. And that's why I tell people that giving yourself a specific goal in the gym is super helpful for this. Because it gives you something tangible. Like you want to get your first chin-up, let's say. That is a training goal. You're now training. You're not working out. You are training because you want to get that first chin-up. And let's say you've been using chin-up assist bands and you were using the really thick one. And one day you decide, I'm going to put on that purple one. I want to see if I can do any with the purple one. And you start flying up there with less help on your chin-ups. You've gotten stronger, and you just had validation right there, in that instant. You made progress. You're motivated to keep going and work hard. And you're just going to keep that wheel spinning, which is what you want.

Nikkiey: Exactly. And I love that you spoke to that, because so many people want instant gratification. They want to pop their body into a microwave, and out comes a toned, muscular body in 30 seconds. I joke about that. That's not the way it works when it comes to building muscle. But to your point, you can find instant gratification in the way you train inside the gym. You set a goal that isn't about body composition or what your body's going to look like. You say, I want to do a muscle-up or a chin-up. You set that goal, and you can go in the gym and now you're training towards that, and you can feel it. And if you're eating right and doing all the right things, in a week or two you may hit one more chin-up than you did the previous two weeks. And that's instant gratification that you're going to find quicker than when you're trying to build muscle on your body, which is going to take a significant amount of time.

Susan: And with building muscle, I ask people what their goal is and they say they want to build muscle. Well, that's a big generic goal, right? And I always ask them to give me something a little more slimmed down and tangible. Because for building muscle, you have to think in years. It's not a month. And I bring this up because I post my transformation pictures, if you want to call them that, two different ones, frequently. And I always get asked how long it was between the two. That's the first thing everyone wants to know, how long. And I don't know. That's legitimate. I have no idea when that first picture was taken. And people are stunned by that. They say, how can you not know? I said, well, I could figure it out. I was running a race. I could look up the year of that race. That I could do, and I do, just to give them a number. But the point is, I was so caught up in wanting to get a chin-up, wanting to be able to deadlift a certain amount of weight, that I lost track of time. I didn't care anymore.

Nikkiey: And you're still working towards it, right? You're still doing it. There's no end point. There's no deadline to you building.

Susan: No.

Nikkiey: I always like to say, when you think about that phrase, I want to build muscle and change the way my body looks, or change my body composition, that is a lot to unpack. Let's pull it in, like you're saying. Reel it in a little bit closer and do the things that are going to get you there. Look at the daily small wins that will compound over time into that ultimate goal. But to your point, people ask me that same question. I'm like, I'm still going. It doesn't stop. It started somewhere, and maybe a couple of years in I started seeing the changes that I wanted, but it took a couple of years to get there. And I'm still going. I still work on some parts of my body that I want to build and change. There's no destination, right? And that's the thing with the yo-yo dieting and diet culture. People want to get to a goal. Which I love when it comes to training. Great, keep hitting those goals. But people want goals with their body, and I feel like there's an all-or-nothing mentality of, I'm going to get here, and then what? You stop. Just like marathon people. They run a marathon and then they just stop. So can you share your insight on what the journey means to you? Why you do this, really, is my question.

Susan: You know, it's so funny, because I've been driven by the little goals for so long. Oh, that looks cool. It's nothing more than that. I don't know if people are expecting a really deep answer, but I wanted to do a chin-up my whole life. I was heavy my whole life. I was that kid in elementary PE that couldn't do the arm hang. I didn't have enough strength to do an arm hang. And now I work towards a 45-pound weighted chin-up.

And I had a little bit of a shoulder injury. It's so interesting, because I have a weird shoulder and it was rearing its ugly head. So I had to rebuild my chin-ups, and I'm in the process of rebuilding. So here it is again. I'm going to be knocking on the door of that 45 pounds again. I learned from the first time that the frequency was too much. As I'm getting older, I've got to space it out more and more. I've got to put a day, maybe two, in between weighted chin-up days. I learned that the hard way the first time around, I guess. So now I'm in rebuild mode, and I want to get three or four reps with that thing strapped to my waist one day. So I'm working towards that. I'm rowing a 90-pound dumbbell, and I want to do 100. That's my big goal there. Why a dumbbell row? I don't know. I just think it would be fun. And then most recently, I started jiu-jitsu at 62.

Nikkiey: So badass. You started at 62. Wow.

Susan: Yeah. And I was terrified.

Nikkiey: It's never too late, you're saying.

Susan: Yeah. I feel like I'm turning a corner there now. It's a complex puzzle, let me tell you something. Jiu-jitsu is something else. It's been a learning curve and a half, and it still is. But it's been something completely different for me to do, and I've really enjoyed it.

Nikkiey: That's so impressive. So with trying new things, and being fearful, talk to that, because I know there are a lot of people who are fearful walking into the weight room, right?

Susan: Jiu-jitsu, oh my God. It's very similar to wrestling.

Nikkiey: Yeah. Okay.

Susan: And I'm doing one-on-one private lessons. I haven't done classes. I'm actually going to start classes next week, and I have a lump in my stomach thinking about going into a class. But I know I need to do it, and I know I'm going to benefit a lot from it. The first time I walked in for jiu-jitsu, I was terrified. I didn't know what to expect. My instructor's a male, and a lot of people get weirded out by that, and it doesn't even cross my mind anymore. My whole mindset has shifted. But it was a lot of feeling uncomfortable.

And it's so interesting, because Jordan told me this one time, and I feel like this is so true. When there is something in front of you, let's say something you want to try but you don't want to try, and you're telling yourself I can't, I can't, and deep down it's because you're scared shitless to do it, you need to do it. That's something that you need to do. And you'll never regret doing it. You're going to learn so much. You may not continue with it. Cool, that's fine. But you will never regret trying it, and you will regret not trying it, because then you'll never know. You will never, ever know.

And that's kind of how it was with jiu-jitsu, because Jordan's really big into jiu-jitsu, and he had been talking with me about it for so long. He said, I think you're going to like it, but if you don't, don't worry about it, blah, blah, blah. And so I finally did it. I literally drove over there and basically cold-knocked on the door.

Nikkiey: That is awesome.

Susan: And I signed up and started the next day, and I go two to three times a week.

Nikkiey: That is amazing. That is an inspiration to so many people, Susan, especially the go-getter mentality. Just go do it. You won't know until you try. And like you said, you won't regret trying it. You may not stick with it, but you tried. At least you know the answer.

Susan: Exactly, exactly. My perspective on life at this age has shifted a lot. I realize my life continuum is not as long as it used to be. And I really don't want to be one of those people who has a ton of regrets, like, I wish I had tried that. We all have life regrets, and I'm not even talking about that kind of stuff. I mean stuff like, man, why didn't I try that back when I could? I don't ever want to be like that.

Nikkiey: I think that's a really good thing to elaborate on, especially when it comes to your health and trying things that make you physically better. Because I like to paint this picture with our community. Think about your body at 70. It could go two ways. If you're someone who's not trying things for your health and fitness, and you're kind of stagnant and comfortable and not really doing anything to make your body healthy and strong, that could be one look at age 70. As opposed to somebody who is doing the things and trying the things, getting their feet wet in jiu-jitsu, or even just going for a walk and then incorporating strength training and stacking on better habits. Your body at 70 could look completely different.

Susan: Oh, absolutely. And it's so funny, with all the talk of longevity, that's a really big piece of it. A lot of research shows that when we hit 75, there's a sharp decline for all of us. But for those of us that are working on it prior to that, our decline is much less. We're all going to have it. That got my attention very quickly when I heard it from a couple of different medical people: we all have this cliff, and it's just how steep it's going to be. And I want mine to be as flat as possible.

Nikkiey: Yeah. Well, you remind me of Train with Joan. Isn't she the one that's like 80 and ripped and has muscle?

Susan: Yeah. And the other bodybuilder, I forget her name.

Nikkiey: Yeah. So you're definitely an inspiration, and I'm sure you already know that, but just to reiterate it to the women that are your age who don't think they can do it: let's get out of that mentality. You can do it. It's never too late.

Susan: That's kind of my mission now, to hopefully lead the way, lead by example, and convince everybody that it isn't too late. It does take work though, and you've got to be ready to do it. It's going to take work no matter how old you are. But it's not such an outrageous amount of work, or that kind of work. You can do it. You just need to decide that this is a priority for you and that you want to do it, and you start. You have to take action.

Nikkiey: Love it. All of that is so true. Susan, I think that's a good spot to wrap up, because it's so inspiring. I want everyone to get off of this podcast and be like, all right, I'm going to go take some action right now. I need to go live. I want them to feel super empowered by you and your message. I feel like that was very powerful and impactful, and I know that's your mission, to help women break through that mindset. So let them know where they can find you, and mention your book for them too.

Susan: Sure. You'll find me mostly on Instagram, and it's Susan Niebergall Fitness. I have a YouTube channel that has a lot of great resources. I try to uncomplicate a lot of stuff over on YouTube. Facebook too. I have a podcast as well called The Strong and Lean at Any Age Podcast. Jordan and I are regulars on his, and mine actually. And my book is called Fit At Any Age: It's Never Too Late, and you can find that on Amazon.

Nikkiey: Amazing, awesome. Thank you so much, Susan, for being here. Again, I appreciate you and your insight and your golden nuggets.

Susan: Yeah, I appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me. This was great.

Nikkiey: Real quick, the only ask I could ever have of you guys is to help spread the word so we can help more women lose body fat, build muscle, reach their goals, and feel insanely confident. And the only way we can do that is if you rate, review, and share this podcast. So the single thing I ask you to do is leave a review. It will take you 10 seconds, and it will mean the absolute world to me and may change the world of someone else.