The Psychology of Fitness & Lasting Change w/ Mike Millner

00:00Real quick, the only ask I could ever have of you guys is to help spread the word so we can help more women lose body fat, build muscle, reach their goals, and feel insanely confident. And the only way we can do that is if you rate, review, and share this podcast. So the single thing I ask for you to do is if you could leave a review. It will take you 10 seconds, and it will mean the absolute world to me and may change the world of someone else. The whole point of fitness is to just keep playing the game. The only way that you lose is if you quit, and the only reason you quit is because your expectations are on a certain timeline that doesn't exist.

00:35There is no finish line. It's never over. So like, you don't have to stress. It's fine. What's going on, you guys? Welcome back to The WarriorBabe Show, or if you guys are new, welcome to the show. We have a very special guest here with us, a local PA native. Let's go! And a high-level nutrition coach. He's been at this for 10 years. He has a gift for understanding the psychological and the physiological needs of his clients.

01:06And this has, with that gift, has led to thousands of success stories. He's also the force behind the Mind Over Macros podcast. Mike is here to share his expertise on how to tailor, having a tailored approach to diet and mindset and fitness, and how we can just revolutionize our health and fitness journey. So Mike, it's great to have you here with us. Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah. Cool. Well, let's kick things off. I just want to know, I want to know, person, a little bit about your story, your journey that led you to be,

01:39and the listeners want to know, too, what led you to become so passionate about nutrition? What led you to become so passionate about the mindset in the fitness world? Yeah, I think, like most of us in this industry, it kind of comes back to our own personal journeys. And I never, in a million years, would have predicted that I'd be doing what I do today. And it was, I grew up an athlete, I played sports my whole life, and I always kind of considered myself the lucky one in my family, because I noticed from a young age, like my mom was always on a diet.

02:10I have two older sisters, they were always concerned about their weight. And I think, you know, there's just a lot of pressure on women. I saw that happening from a very young age, but I was like, hey, I play sports, I've got the fast metabolism, I can eat whatever I want, so I'm good. And I'm never going to struggle with my weight until I went to college, still played sports. And then once I didn't have organized sports anymore, I was still eating and drinking like a typical college kid. And I gained probably about 80 pounds in like a year and did not recognize myself.

02:42I woke up one morning, I was in Maryland where I went to school, and I stayed after I graduated, I stayed an extra year, because I was dating somebody who then became my wife, who's now my ex-wife. Anyway, we were at school together, and I woke up one morning, I went into the bathroom, and I was like, oh my God, I don't even recognize myself. Like, who is this person? And I had, you know, it was just heavy drinking, a lot of, you know, fast food, and not really, I didn't have, I wasn't playing organized sports anymore,

03:13so I wasn't as active, even though I was working and I was bartending, so I was on my feet, but outside of that, I was just partying it up and doing what typical college kids do. And it was that moment where I knew I needed to make a change, but the thing that I've reflected back on, it was really like an identity-shattering moment for me, because I did identify so deeply as an athlete. So there was this internal dialogue in my head of, I can't see people that I, you know, went to high school with, because I know that they're going to be like, what happened to you?

03:45How did you let yourself go? So how did this, like, all these questions would pop up, and I didn't feel confident going, like, playing basketball or stepping on a tennis court or doing anything that I used to do. So my solution was, let me get this weight off as fast as I can to get back to being me. And that led me down a path of doing hours of cardio, trying to starve myself. I didn't know anything. Like, I was the most susceptible person to, like, bold claims in the fitness industry. If anybody was like, hey, you could lose 100 pounds in two weeks, I'm like, yes, sign me up.

04:18That's my program. I need that right now. So, like, infomercials, like, that, I know I'm aging myself a little bit, but, like, infomercials or things on the radio that were just, as the bigger and bolder the promise, the more all-in I was. So I was doing, like, as a 260-pound male at the time, doing, like, 1,200-calorie meal plans and trying to eat as little as possible and doing two hours of cardio every day. I would lose a bunch of weight, and I would gain it all back. And it took me the better part of a decade to crawl out of that hole.

04:51And I suffered from body dysmorphia. I had a horrible relationship with food, horrible relationship with my body and exercise. And, ultimately, it was crawling my way out of that. You know, I could continue with all of, like, the impact that it had on my well-being, my relationships, on my marriage at the time, on my family and my dynamic there. Like, everything around me was kind of crumbling because I was so obsessed with losing weight. And, ultimately, when I crawled out of that dark place and figured things out for myself,

05:22that led me to want to pay it forward and help people avoid all the stuff that I had gone through. Wow. Wow. Our stories, I didn't even realize, overlap in a very similar way. Like, I was, like, the athlete, too, as well. And then had the period in between, like, from high school to 25, or post-high school to 25, I was, like, partying it up, trying to figure out life. And then, like, 25 was like, yo, you got to reel it in and get your shit together.

05:52Holy moly. Well, thanks for sharing that. I know that paints a little bit of a light as we dive into some questions that I have. Like, you, like a lot of women, very similarly, struggled with, like, oh, I'm going to hop on this next new thing. That is, like, the hot. Like, I, like, love that you shared that because I think everybody has been there. It's like, oh, this new flashy thing is going to tell me that I'm going to lose weight in X amount of time. Sign me up. Like, I love that. And then you were doing, like, 1,200 calories at that point.

06:23So, you know, what were things that shifted your mindset of realizing that, okay, this isn't the way that I need to – how to make it more sustainable for yourself? Like, this isn't working or, like, it worked for a period of time, but, like, it's not getting me to where I want to be in a more sustainable fashion. Like, how – where was that switch there? Yeah, so, unfortunately, it was, like, one of those rock-bottom moments where it was, like, something has to change because this can't be my life forever. And oftentimes, I would blame myself.

06:53So, the pattern that a lot of people fall in that I definitely fell in was I would do the meal plan. So, that was, like, the first thing that I ever tried. I actually found a meal plan. I bought this piece of cardio equipment because, again, I was, like, I saw a commercial and they were, like, it burns 17 times more calories than a treadmill. And I'm, like, boom, that's my thing. I'm going to buy it. So, I bought this piece of cardio equipment. I put it in my apartment. Back page of the little, like, instruction manual, there was, like, a sample meal plan.

07:23That was, like, 1,200-calorie sample meal plan. And so, I just followed that. I was, like, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just going to follow this 1,200-calorie meal plan because this is the cardio machine that's going to get me fit. And I lost a ton of weight, but I couldn't maintain. I would reach that tipping point where I would just eat everything in sight. But then I would blame myself. And I was, like, well, it worked, quote, unquote, worked because I lost a lot of weight. And if I had just been more disciplined, if I just had more willpower, if I could just fight through those cravings and the low energy and the fatigue and all the stuff that I was experiencing, if I could just stick with it, I would have been exactly where I wanted to be.

08:02And I would just, like, find different versions of that. I would, you know, eliminating carbs, that's the way to go. I did another program where it was, like, you don't eat your first meal until 2 p.m. You can only eat between 2 and 8. And I would have, like, this six-hour feeding window. You could only eat carbs if you worked out. Like, I've done everything. I did Optivia before it was Optivia back when it was Metafast. And it was still basically the same. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, so I literally did everything. And I would always beat myself up over, like, why can't you just stay disciplined?

08:35Why can't you just follow through? Like, the weight is coming off. And then I would just gain it back. And I would sit there. And, like, I consider myself a pretty disciplined person. So it was, like, hard to grapple with that internal struggle. Like, I know that I can commit to things. When I say I'm going to do something, I follow through. But, like, why is this so difficult? And then I was, like, sitting in my house one day. I had moved back to outside of Philly where I'm from. And, again, I got married, was, like, trying to figure things out still, still going through this, like, diet struggle.

09:12And my wife and I, my ex-wife now, but we used to travel a lot. We used to always, like, want to see new places, experience the world, like, experience new cultures. And we would go out and we would do, like, have date nights and things like that. And I started playing sports again, got into, like, a flag football league. We would hang out with friends and go out for drinks. And I just stopped doing all of that stuff because I associated that with, like, discipline. I was, like, I have to drown out, like, everything else in my life and just really focus and do it this time.

09:43And so we were no longer traveling. We weren't doing date nights anymore. I was telling friends, like, people would reach out, like, hey, you want to go out to dinner? Be like, oh, I'm sorry. I'm not feeling well. I would skip out on family gatherings. And then it was just, like, a moment where I was, like, sitting on the couch and I'm, like, probably, like, eating, like, chicken and broccoli. And I'm, like, this is what my life is. Like, I have no, like, all of my relationships are crumbling. I'm lonely. I'm not happy. I don't like how I look. I don't like how I feel.

10:13And I'm sitting here with, like, all the things that I say that I value. If I say I value family, if I say I value relationships, if I say I value friendships, like, I'm tearing it all down just because I'm trying to, what, follow this, like, bullshit meal plan that I bought online? Like, how does this make sense? That was kind of, like, my rock bottom moment. I was, like, there has to be a better way. This can't be just the, like, it just can't be this way. So, I just started trying to educate myself at that point into, like, what's actually, I'm a pretty smart person, you know, like, graduated college.

10:48I did all the things. I feel like I'm intelligent. So, it was, like, let me just figure out what's actually happening in my body. Like, what happens? What does nutritional science say? What is the human metabolism? What are all these things? And it was really when I poured myself into education, I was, like, oh, okay. Now I see the disconnect. Like, I've been putting my body through the wringer. I've been eating way less than my body requires. And it's triggering hunger. And it's slowing down my metabolism. And it's making weight regain so, so easy to happen. And, like, that was the light bulb moment that really shifted things for me.

11:19But, unfortunately, it came from kind of that rock bottom situation. Yeah, well, I think those were, you know, the best people are made from, honestly, that are in this space. They all have that backstory. Thank you for sharing that. Very vulnerable moments there for you, for sure. So, with that, a lot to unpack there. And I want to, like, pin some of the things that you mentioned because I want to circle back to it. But first one that I want you to have elaborate with your experience is those psychological barriers that I know a lot of people do face

11:51when they're trying to lose weight. Like, you mentioned more of, like, the identity shift. You mentioned more of, like, saying no to, like, your friends and your family and, like, having to, like, block everything out of what you value. And, like, you know, am I surrounding myself with the right people that people, like, go through down that rabbit hole in their mind? Or they don't feel like they're surrounded by other people? Or, you know, what are, in your experience and also with you coaching clients, are some of those psychological barriers that people face when they're on this journey? And then how can they overcome them?

12:21Yeah, I think the biggest one is, like I mentioned, it's thinking that it's your fault. That, you know, it's always taking the blame of, I didn't try hard enough. I wasn't disciplined enough. I didn't have enough willpower. Without ever considering the method. Without ever considering, like, maybe it was the diet. Maybe it wasn't the right fit for you. It's like people who always, you know, when you're in a relationship, right, and you are, like, dating, and you're trying to find the right person. And, like, a lot of times we're just like, oh, it must have been me.

12:52Like, what? There's another person involved. And your nutrition, that's kind of like another relationship, right? It's like there's another person involved or another entity involved that does have some responsibility there. So I think that's a big one is we always assume that it's just our fault. Instead of thinking, like, is this actually the right fit for me? Is this the right approach for me? Or maybe I've been trying to place myself into a box that I don't belong in. And that's like I looked at how other people were working out and how other people were eating and what other people were doing.

13:25And it was always like, okay, I need to just go fit into what this person's doing or what this person says I need to do. And never considering my own individual needs, my own personality, metabolism, like lifestyle, things that I want, all of that, like my values. That all has to play a role. Otherwise, you're going to find yourself consistently starting over. And then unfortunately, it kind of builds this expectation of failure. So like because you've gone through it so many times, the next time you're subconsciously like, okay, here we go again.

14:00I know how this plays out. And you might sabotage yourself before you even get started. So unfortunately, that's something like somebody can find the right path. Like work with a coach who has a truly personalized approach. And they'll work with a coach who knows what they're doing, who can give them the best laid plan. But because they've been burned so many times in the past, there's this subconscious, I'm going to fail anyway. So I'm just going to sabotage before it happens and not even listen and not even follow through because I know how this plays out. Unfortunately, like there's no easy answer for how to break out of that other than you got to ask yourself difficult questions and challenge your existing thoughts and beliefs.

14:35Like the two things that I always say that changed my life and changed a lot of our clients' lives. If you can recognize that not every thought that you have is fact and we have thousands of thoughts a day, so it would be ridiculous to assume that they are. But we do that. We just have a thought. We're like, oh, it must be true because I thought it. Most of our thoughts are not based in truth. They're not based in fact. So that's number one. And number two is that your emotions don't need to be immediately acted upon. If you can learn those two things, my thoughts are not true always.

15:05My thoughts are not always fact. And when I have an emotion, it's okay to just sit with the emotion and not do anything about it right away. Let me just sit there and like chill with it for a second and process it and then decide how I want to respond. It puts you in the driver's seat. And that's really where you can start to see those massive shifts happening in, you know, identity and your belief system and how you handle adversity, how you handle failure, how you handle setbacks. It completely changes everything. Ladies, are you feeling frustrated with body changes you're experiencing during menopause?

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16:17Take charge of your health and join our community of strong, empowered women. Visit warriorbabe.com forward slash apply today to start your transformation. That's warriorbabe.com forward slash apply. All right, let's get back to the show. Damn. That is such a powerful, just like, dude, like, rewind. That was like for the last, like, five minutes, maybe like three minutes.

16:47That was such a good response that I love that. I want to dive a little bit deeper in the thoughts, emotions, like that type of concept. And especially when you dropped the word failure, I was like, that was going to be my next thing that I wanted to ask you. Like, how with those concepts, thoughts, emotions, like trying things and then they feel like they fail because they don't follow through. They're setting up for failure beforehand, themselves for failure beforehand. How you mentioned those, like, how do you approach like a one-on-one client that has these thoughts, that has these emotions that are freaking out because like, you know, they're not where they want to be or like they're already self-sabotaging beforehand.

17:27Like, how do you approach that concept with them one-on-one? Hey, hey, just want to drop a huge appreciation to you guys listening to the show. It means a lot. I hope you guys are enjoying it and there's so much more to come with it. If you are enjoying it, hit the subscribe button. I'd appreciate that tons. And also, it would help this podcast reach others who need to hear these messages too. Yeah, so it's asking them the uncomfortable questions that they don't want to ask themselves. So this is something that I learned when I went through therapy and I think therapy is really valuable for most people.

18:03And there's, for some reason, a stigma around it that we need to get rid of. Like, you don't have to be broken to go to therapy and it's one of the most useful tools that you'll learn to be able to just process things like this. But we have this tendency as humans where the minute that we have the uncomfortable thought, it hits this wall and we, like, shut it down. We're like, oh, no, I don't want to go there. So we shut it down. It's like the minute that we think about, you know, failure or we think about not being good enough or we think about a relationship ending or we think about getting fired from a job or anything that we, like, the minute that that uncomfortable thought comes up, we shut it down.

18:40Like, nope, don't go there. I'm going to push the beach ball underwater. And the more you try to hold that beach ball underwater, the more that it's going to explode up with more force. That's such a good analogy. And that's what we do, right? And because we're afraid to go past the wall, but everything that you're searching for is past that wall. Everything that you're searching for is just being able to go beyond that thread of, well, what does that mean? Like, okay, let's say you do fail. Let's say that you do self-sabotage. What does that actually mean? What does that say about you?

19:11Because there's a story attached to that. Like, if we just strip away all of the emotion and context around it, like, factually speaking, it's like a human ate food. And then, like, that's, like, the fact. Or, like, we interpret it as I failed because I ate foods that were off limits. Okay, well, tell me why you think those foods are off limits. Oh, well, because I was told by somebody else that they were, okay, well, tell me, like, is that serving you? Is that a belief that you want to continue? Has that helped you on your journey?

19:41Has that hurt you? Like, keep asking the difficult questions. Or there's some kind of belief that's, like, if I fail, you know, when I was younger, that meant that I got punished. Or when I got a bad grade, like, my parents yelled at me. And I don't, you know. So now, all of a sudden, there's, like, a connection to something else. It's not about the thing that you did. It's about, you know, what you attach that to from childhood or from your upbringing. Or there's some connection there. But we're so afraid to go past that uncomfortable thought or that uncomfortable feeling that we just shut it down and we push the beach ball underwater.

20:15So what we do with our clients is we just ask those uncomfortable questions because then we get to the core of the issue. And usually, they come to their own conclusion of, like, it's actually not that bad. Like, when you think about, like, a relationship ending, sometimes people are like, well, I don't want that to happen. Like, okay, well, let's say it does happen. What are you going to do? Well, I'll be sad. Yeah. Are you going to grieve the relationship? Yes. Okay. And then what? Well, I don't know. Then I'll, like, go and try to find somebody else. Great. Do you think that there's anybody else out there in the world that may be a good fit for you?

20:47Yeah, probably. Okay. So is it really that? Like, once you go past that uncomfortable thing, it's actually not that bad. The worst case scenario is usually not that bad. So what I find is, like, we'll sometimes come up with, just as, like, a funny exercise, we'll come up with that. Like, worst case scenario. I do this all the time. It's like, I was so afraid of my business, afraid of my business failing. And I was like, my therapist was like, what happens if that happened? I'm like, I don't know. Nothing. Like, what's your backup plan?

21:18I was like, I don't know. I could go back to bartending. I could go, like, I used to coach tennis. I'm playing a lot of tennis now. I could do that again. I could go. She's like, cool. Now we have our backup plan. The worst case scenario is you either go back to bartending, you go back to coaching tennis, and you're totally fine. Like, yeah, you're right. It's actually not that big of a deal. So we'll do that with our clients. Like, let's just come up with the worst case scenario. Hey, this didn't work. Great. Let's try something else. And we're still in the same spot. We're no worse, no better. It's actually not that big of a deal. So my long-winded answer is we ask difficult questions that people are afraid to ask themselves.

21:52Man, I love that. I love that so much. That's so good. So strong. And then, okay. So once you get there with the client, right, that's like a huge step. That's like not a lot of people can break down that wall, nor like can the client usually accept it at a quick rate that you guys can then focus on the next step, which I feel like, okay, the next step, once this is understood and the client can get there with you at that level, the next step I would say is like behavior change. Right? So am I right there? Yeah. 100%. It's how do you want to respond?

22:23Like, let's say the situation happens again. In your ideal scenario, how do you respond? Because you're trying to become somebody. You're trying to become this next version of yourself. How does that person respond in those situations? And now we have kind of that like guiding light. It's like, okay, now we know. Like the person that you want to become responds like this. So the next time this feeling comes up, we're not going to immediately react to it because we know we got to sit with the emotion. We're not going to immediately respond to a negative emotion. We're going to let it sit for a second.

22:53Be like, okay, what is this telling me? Got it. What do I want to tell it? And now how do I want to respond? And now it puts you in control to be like, oh, now I remember. The person that I want to become does this instead. Now, is it always going to be perfect? Of course not. You're going to have those moments where you just immediately react to the emotion, but you're going to remember it. You're going to be like, oh, shit. I was reactive there. It's okay. I recognize it. Now I have even more awareness. And the next time I'm going to be more prepared. I'm going to take that pause. I'm going to count to 10. I'm going to leave the room.

23:24I'm going to come back. I'm going to sit with it. And then I'm going to decide how I want to respond based off of the person that I want to become and how that person responds in these situations. And that's where the behavior change happens. The more frequently you do that, it's just like anything. Reps over time, that creates the habit. That creates the identity shift. That creates the change that you want. This is so damn good. Okay. So though, for clients that are listening or people that are listening, how long would you think that this takes a client to go through on average? Totally dependent on the person.

23:55Like we've had people who like, they're like, I've never processed things like this. And this is totally crazy. And like, it makes so much sense. And they just take it and they run with it. And they're like, I actually have permission. That's all they needed was just permission to be human. And like, we're just going to give you permission to fail and use that as feedback and as a learning opportunity. And hey, you know what? It's okay. Like, this is how you've responded in the past. Like, that doesn't have to be your reality. So we've had people who like, they grasp the concept and they run with it. Others, sometimes it takes, you know, people hate when I say this, but like, sometimes it takes six months, 12 months, longer.

24:31Like, it really depends on how deeply ingrained these behavior patterns are and just kind of slowly chiseling away at it. But it's like, small incremental progress over time. So it's really dependent on the person. Some people can take it and run with it. Some people, we got to have that like slow methodical progress. And it just, you know, it can take a year or longer in some cases. Yeah, that's so good. And, you know, I didn't, like I mentioned to you beforehand, before we hopped on this recording, like, and now just listening to you even more and your thoughts, your articulation of the words, the breakdown of all of this,

25:08which is a hard thing for, you know, normal, like for people to grasp at a deep level of what you're explaining it at. I didn't realize how much like our messages and our like standpoint on fitness and nutrition align. And it's so cool to talk to somebody else that's just so, so like minded in this sense. And once like, you know, I always say that like the tip of the iceberg of what people go after, right? In the nutrition space and fitness space. It's like, yeah, macros, workouts, like cool, like the tactical things that people can get the results with.

25:43However, if you want to go further and have more of a sustainable, realistic, you know, happy and joyful like journey, you got to address the bottom of the iceberg, which is like these thoughts, these like allowing yourself to process why you have this thought process around food, because maybe it was a way you were brought up because your mom was on a diet and you saw your mom dieting. And like, you didn't have the ability to process it until now that you're being asked these questions. So where is this even coming from?

26:13Thank you. I have to say, because like, this is such a good fucking topic right now that you're diving in on and that we're talking about. Because I always joke to him, like, you know, fitness coaches, we have the name fitness coaches. But like, what do you think? Like, at some level, we also are a therapist, a life coach, like all of these things. You agree? I do. Like the mindset stuff is what makes it sustainable. Yeah. Because again, the tactics, like anybody can follow something for a short period of time.

26:45But if you don't have like that core identity shift, and like, this is who I am now. Like, I am somebody who eats quality food. I am somebody who moves my body. I am somebody who wants to be strong. And like, that becomes who you are. If it doesn't, if you don't make that shift, then the tactics and the methods will, they'll be fleeting. You know, it'll be short lived. And, you know, I've had, I've had a client, one in particular that comes to mind. When I first got started, it was like, I really started diving into like, the psychology of it and like, cognitive behavioral therapy and all these things.

27:17And she had this connection with like, certain comfort foods that she could not stop overindulging. And like, when we got to the core of it, she was like, grew up in a very hectic upbringing, and there was no stability. And there was no like, you know, there was no pillar in her life that was like, I know that this person's going to be there for me. Everything was like, constantly on the move. You know, people that would abandon her, like a lot of trauma. And the food was the comfort.

27:48Like, the food was the predictability. Like, I know, like, this thing is always here for me. And so for her, it was, it provided stability. So we actually had to break down, like, what else in your life can you use for stability and comfort outside of food? And it was then being able to replace that with, oh, there's actually a lot of things now as an adult that I can use as kind of pillars in my life where I don't have to just lean on, you know, comfort food for this certainty or this predictability or this stability that I'm searching for.

28:18I can find it in other places. And, you know, I've heard psychologists talk about this all the time. And I have a really good friend of mine who's a therapist. And actually, my oldest sister is a therapist. And, like, when you find the connection to something, like, you had a client who's an alcoholic. And it was, like, because that was the connection that he, like, his dad passed away at a young age. And he made this connection that, like, alcohol was the thing that bonded him and his dad. So once they found that connection, it was, like, is there anything else that connects you to your dad?

28:49And once they started to replace that with something more productive, then all of a sudden, like, he no longer felt the need to drink. So there's a lot of psychology principles that go in. I don't ever – I always am very clear about scope of practice. Like, I'll tell a client if I think you need to actually go, like, I'll make a recommendation. I'll say, like, hey, I think this is beyond my scope. But without a doubt, there are certain principles when it comes to, like, identity, when it comes to mindset, when it comes to belief systems and all of that, that we absolutely, as coaches, should have the skill set to at least be that support while they're getting help from, you know, a licensed professional.

29:26Yes, 100%. Okay, I want to circle back a little bit where you went back to behavioral and then we'll pivot. But this is just so good that I want to close the loop here on this concept. Can you explain, like, clearly, like, once you get – you have this conversation, worst-case scenario, you're questioning your client, you're helping them get past, like, these thoughts, these emotions and, like, processing them. And then you get to the point of, like, okay, now behavioral change, now, like, you person you want to become, you got to start acting like that person and get in alignment with that person and start showing up like that person.

30:01But the client has to do the work. You know, like, you're the coach. The client's got to – the self-efficiency, right? So can you explain how the concept of self-efficiency plays a role in the success of that behavioral change? Like, I feel like that's, like, the next final – I feel like it's, like, a three-tier thing that we're coming up here with right now. So that – the next one is, like, that person has to do it. So can you elaborate there? Yeah, so there's a couple things that we do. Number one is we identify the gap between the things that they're doing now versus the things that the, like, ideal version of themselves would do.

30:36So – and a lot of people are afraid. It's like tracking macros. Like, when you can clearly see this is how I've been eating versus this is what I should be eating, now you have the roadmap to close the gap. Like, oh, I've been eating 50 grams of protein a day. My body actually should be getting 150. Like, I'm not going to just rip the Band-Aid off and go from 50 to 150, but I see the roadmap to getting there and closing the gap. So we do that with behavior. Like, the ideal version of you, how do they handle these situations? What are the actions and habits and rituals and things?

31:08Like, let's identify what that person does, and then let's identify what you do now. And now we have a gap to fill, and we have a roadmap. But we don't just start, like, all right, there's 10 things that need to be changed. Let's just fix them all at once. We let the client decide, like, what in this, you know, this gap that we've identified. Like, what's the easiest one right now? Like, the one that you look at and you're like, I know I could do that every single day. And we actually have them do, like, a commitment card. So we'll do, like, make a commitment card to yourself, something nutrition-related, something movement-related, and something mindset-related.

31:43And we're just going to start with, like, the minimum effective dose that you know that it's not like there's this sweet spot where it's not too difficult that it's going to frustrate them, and it's not too easy that it's going to bore them, but it's kind of that Goldilocks zone. And we're going to make those three commitments, and you're going to write it down on a commitment card, and you're going to follow through. And we're just going to build that self-trust that when you say you do something, you're going to follow through. And it's just creating that feedback loop. Like, oh, I made a commitment. I did it. And we're actually going to acknowledge, because now we get into, like, actual habit and behavior change.

32:19We need to close the loop with a dopamine hit, just kind of how our brains work. So there's, like, a trigger, there's a behavior, and there's a reward. And the reward is usually our dopamine system in the brain. So we actually have to identify and celebrate when we do something. And I'm not talking about, like, you throw yourself a party. Like, hey, just as simple as, like, I checked off this thing on my commitment card today. I did it. Task completed. Like, that closes the loop. You get a little dopamine hit. Your brain feels happy, and you're like, there we go. I did it. And the more that you do that, it just creates, you're just basically making deposits into your self-trust bank account.

32:53And now, all of a sudden, we can go from these three small commitments to larger commitments to more commitments. And now you've kind of, like, we talked about that failure feedback loop where it's like, I'm going to sabotage because I'm going to fail anyway. Well, now it's a success feedback loop. I say I'm going to do something, and I've done it for the past however many months. Now I can tackle the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. But, yeah, ultimately, it has to be autonomous. Like, we ask the client to identify the things that they want to instill. It's not what we want for them.

33:24It's what they want for themselves. So there really has to be that level of agency and autonomy over, like, I want this for myself, so I'm going to work on it because it's important to me. Yeah, it helps to have a coach reminding you of, like, why this is important. Like, hey, remember when you said this was about, like, being a better mom and showing up for your family? Like, let's just keep that in mind. But ultimately, the work is up to them to follow through. Yeah, totally. Love that. You just quoted a bunch of, like, habit books there. So what are your favorite habit books to somebody you could go and listen to right now or buy?

33:55Yeah. Atomic Habits is a classic by James Clear. And then Tiny Habits by, is it BJ Fogg, I think? That's another really good one. Tiny Habits. Cool. I'm even quoting that one. Actually, I have Atomic Habits back there. I think I've read and listened to that, I don't know, like 10 or 15, 20 times. Such a good book. And I heard you, like, talking about the feedback loop and all of that. And, like, also for every action that you take, it's a vote towards your future self. So I love that. Good stuff. All right.

34:25Let's pivot. Macros. Okay. You mentioned the word there. Your podcast is Mind Over Macros. We're on The WarriorBabe Show. Why do you love macros? Why macros? Like, just touch a little bit on that. Yeah. So I'm a big believer that awareness precedes change. And if you want to change something, you should first take inventory of, like, where things currently are. And, like, macros have such a weird reputation because a lot of times people will say it's disordered or it's stressful.

34:56It's none of those things. It's like nobody looks at a tool or something and is like, it's just like a, you know, it doesn't have feelings. It doesn't have emotions. It's just a thing that we can use to help ourselves. So I think sometimes we have to be careful about how we communicate certain things because we start to create a false narrative based off of the way that we perceive something. But it's literally awareness. It's like if I wanted to, you know, save more money and I started taking inventory of where I was spending, how much money I'm making, and I started to look at my budget.

35:33Like, nobody would ever call that disordered. But it's just awareness. Like, I need awareness to make a change. If I have a goal and I want to have more money in my bank account, I should probably know where I'm spending and how much I'm making. Like, if I want to change my body, if I have goals, if I want to look a certain way, if I want to feel a certain way, perform a certain way, we're talking about food. Like, that's what we're measuring. Like, yes, there's other things involved, like strength training and movement and stress management and sleep. But all of it, all of it can be measured.

36:03All of it can start from a place of awareness. Oh, you're only sleeping four hours per night? Okay, great. Well, now we have a starting point. And let's try for five hours. Then let's try for six. It's like, it's the same concept. And so any process of change, it has to start from a place of awareness. And macros, up until this point, are the most effective way to be aware of what you're currently consuming and then seeing where the gap exists between where you are and where you need to be. Yeah, so good. So good. I love that little plug up until this point. Yeah, makes the most sense.

36:34Scientifically, makes the most sense. God, this is so good. This whole conversation is so good. So with that being said, awareness, right? But so many people feel so daunted by the process of macros. So how can you speak to those to make them feel a little bit more comfortable and confident that the process is worth it? Yeah, so let's pull from all the past experiences in your life. And like, you've probably lived a pretty full life up until this point, regardless of how old you are. We've worked with clients from 18 to 74, I think.

37:07So like, it doesn't matter. You've got life experience under your belt. Think about what happened the first time you started a new job. You probably weren't the most proficient. You probably didn't know the ins and outs of the office dynamic and how the software worked and how, you know, the company likes to do things. So there was a learning curve. The first time maybe you learned a language and you were probably pretty bad at it at first and you kept practicing, kept practicing, and then you became fluent. First time you tried to play an instrument, you probably didn't know what you were doing. The first time you stepped foot in a gym.

37:37Like, we have life experience to pull from. This is no different. We learn the same way. Even back to a time that you don't remember when you tried to learn how to walk and you kept getting up and falling down and getting up and falling down and you didn't think, you know what? Walking just isn't for me. Just kept going. Like, we got to get back to our little toddler roots and understand that it's just like everything else that we do in life. There will be a learning curve and then it becomes like walking. You don't have to think about it. It's mindless. Like, I can tell you it takes me zero mental energy to track my macros because now it's just like walking.

38:12So, except in the beginning that it's going to be uncomfortable, that there is a learning curve, that just like everything else, we have to continue to practice. And then we find little shortcuts. We find our groove. We find things that work for us, things that don't work for us. We, you know, strip things away. We add, like, it's just a process, just like everything else. So, what I would say is embrace that because that's how we do everything as humans and just pull from past experience in your life to know that this is no different than the first time you started a new job.

38:43Mic drop. Everybody go rewind. Listen to that part because you'll definitely feel more comfortable and confident with understanding the process of tracking macros. Now, you too will stumble, fail, fall off your bike, all that stuff. I love the analogies you use there. I love the one with, like, the training wheels. And then you take them off and you're still going to hit bumps in the road and you may fall off. And then you have the full on just riding the bike and then it gets easier and easier and easier. Love that. So, yesterday, because I was on your podcast yesterday, and thanks for having me on there again, by the way.

39:13You mentioned very subtly that you're in, like, the phase of, like, flexibility, like, your stage of flexibility. So, can you discuss the importance of that stage for yourself and especially in a dieting aspect or when someone's on a journey and how, like, being too rigid can actually, like, just completely hinder progress? Yeah, I think, you know, for me, flexibility is where I currently am not tracking macros, but I have because I've done it for so long.

39:45It is, like, I have a lot of awareness around how much I'm eating. I don't have to, like, question, am I getting enough protein? Am I eating enough? That sort of thing because I've been doing it for so long. But it's nice to just be able to eat a little bit more freely. You know, when I'm in kind of this season of flexibility, it's, like, you know, probably eating out a little bit more than I normally would. I mean, it's not a lot, but, like, you know, maybe two times a week versus if I'm, like, actively dieting, it's probably one or zero.

40:16So, you know, I can go out with my friends for a couple drinks and not feel any type of way about it. Like, I just know what that looks like where I can maintain a certain level of leanness that I hold myself to that stand. This is just personal preference. I always say, like, your goals have to be your goals. Like, nobody said you have to walk around shredded. And, like, it's very difficult to do, and I learned that the hard way because, you know, getting to a certain level of leanness, you're like, oh, this is just going to be easy to maintain. But you got to find that what I call lifestyle level of leanness that makes sense for you based off of how you want to look, how you want to feel, and what that level of flexibility looks like.

40:53So I am somebody – like, I love food. I love to try restaurants. I love to try different, you know, foods and go out. And, you know, I know that, like, it's – a lot of people kind of frown upon, like, a nutrition coach drinking alcohol, but I actually enjoy alcohol. I would say, like, probably at this point it's, like, maybe once every other week. But when I, you know, have, like, two or three drinks if I go out and have drinks out to dinner or whatever. But I enjoy the process of being able to still work out, like, three days a week, play tennis a couple times a week, not track my food, and maintain a certain level of leanness.

41:30And that feels good for me. Now, am I, like, you know, at that place where I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm, like, super fit and, like, confident. Like, I know that I could be leaner. I've been a lot leaner before. But this is what I call, like, the lifestyle level of leanness where I'm happy, I have a high degree of flexibility, and if I ever want to turn it on, I know how to turn it on. Facts. I love that. That's so real, raw, and honest. You know, that is the sustainable aspect of a lifestyle with still being healthy and, you know, working out.

42:03Like, it's – I think it's important to highlight that because I'm in the same boat, right? Like, I think living flexibly and being able to intuitively eat because the awareness part is already there. And I'm not going to, you know, you experience but saying no and, like, you know, living in, like, that rigid lifestyle, which should actually hurt your progress in terms of, like, the values you live up to and for yourself and what you expect with the family and relationships and all that kind of stuff. So highlighting, like, that and then highlighting the alcohol side of things, you know, it's like some people enjoy that, and that's okay.

42:42You know, your goal is your goal and whatever your goal is. But you also said, like, once every other, like, week or something like that with only two or three drinks, you know, somebody else's alcohol could be completely different where they're having wine every single freaking night and they're wondering why they're not seeing the results that they want. So, yeah, I love that. And it's also just, you know, you are you and this is how you live your life. I think about Jordan Syatt when I, when, like, speaking to this. Like, he's not ripped and in shape, but he can speak at the high nines about fitness and nutrition, call people out and be honest about it.

43:12So I love that because it's like everybody has their own picture of their sustainable approach to fitness. Yeah. One thing that I think is really important to add context, there are certain things that I've built up as a foundation that are literally second nature so much so that I didn't even think about them when you asked the question because it's just part of my life now. Like, I don't ever have to question, am I getting in enough protein? Like, that's something that a lot of people struggle with. It's just a daily habit for me that I'm always eating protein.

43:44Like, I don't, it doesn't take up any of my, like, mental energy. Um, getting 10,000 steps a day, I walk a lot. I always look for opportunities to walk and move my body. So, like, that's another one that it's every, every single day. Like, if, if I'm under, I don't, I don't look at it. I don't care. I just know that getting a lot of steps and movement is a foundational habit. Prioritizing my sleep. Like, do not fuck with my sleep routine. Like, it's, it is always in place. Like, I need to be in bed at a certain time. I know when I'm waking up every morning.

44:14Like, I do not mess around with my sleep. There's certain things like drinking enough water. I'm, I'm always, I've got my water right here. It's like, it's just part of my life now. So much so I literally don't have to think about it. But that was years of, of just doing it over and over and over. So when I say flexibility, it's with the understanding that there is a strong base level of, of foundational habits that have been in place for a really long time. So if I skip a week at the gym, not a big deal. If I, you know, overindulge over a weekend because, you know, I'm having some fun and

44:46I want, you know, to eat freely and drink a little bit more than I normally do. It's not a big deal. Cause I always have these habits in place. A fucking man, man. Amen. I'm so happy you circled back to that. Cause yeah, that's so true. So many strong foundational habits that you've built over through the years that like, they're like almost like you're non-negotiables in a sense. You have to make sure you hit those on a daily basis for you, especially the sleep. I am the same way. I'm like, yo, I need like nine hours of sleep a night and Nate, nobody be fucking with me with that.

45:17Um, cool. Well, let's talk about now the, your, so I would love to hear your favorite misconception with like fitness and nutrition and what's going on in the industry. And like, what's your favorite one and can you debunk it for us? Yeah. There's so many to choose from. Um, uh, I would say the biggest one is just about like, um, the things like the sacrifices that you, and it's tough because we humans love to swing on either end of the extreme. And we were so uncomfortable in the middle.

45:48We're so uncomfortable in the gray. We love for things to be black and white. So I think on the one end, you have people who are like, you have to cut carbs and cut sugar and seed oils are going to kill you. And there's all this like fear mongering about the things that you have to sacrifice. Then on the other end of the spectrum, you have people that are like, you can literally eat whatever you want and still look exactly how you want. You can get shredded and whatever and eat. And the answer is in the middle. And I, and I find both messages to be harmful to a certain extent. Like no carbs are not going to kill you. No, like seed oils are not going to kill you.

46:20Like certain, there are certain foods that are more nutritionally dense than others. But if you are consuming mostly whole quality food sources, like it's totally fine to have some processed foods in there, like 80, 20 rule, 80% quality, 20% flexible. And then the message of like, you can eat whatever you want and still look the way you want is I think the intent behind that is you can incorporate foods that you want and still look the way that you want.

46:50Not you can eat whatever you want. Cause people are like, I don't understand to your point. Like I'm drinking wine every day, but like, you know, you know, Tommy tough nuts on the internet said I could drink wine and still get shredded. Like whatever. Oh, it's like there, the answer is in the middle. You have to make sacrifices. You don't have to be miserable. There are certain things that you will probably have to cut back on, but you don't have to eliminate carbs. Don't have to eliminate alcohol. You don't have to eliminate sugar or oils or whatever. Somebody is trying to scare you into getting rid of.

47:21It's just not the case. So there's that one. And then there's like the, the cardio myth of like cardio is the best way to, to lose fat and burn calories. Talk a little bit more on that. I need to hear this answer. I mean, it, it falls short in just about like every scientific way possible. Um, so first of all, you're not burning that many calories during cardio, uh, as many calories as you probably think you're burning, it's probably a lot less. And then as you do more cardio, your body gets more efficient at doing cardio, which means

47:53that however many calories, let's just say running a mile, let's say you have never run a mile. You run a mile. It's probably going to take a lot of mental energy and physical energy. You'll burn some calories, but then you keep running the mile and your brain and your body get really in sync and more efficient and your, your muscles are firing more efficiently. And all of a sudden the amount of calories that it took to run that mile is less and less and less. But you're also prioritizing a manual burn of calories versus prioritizing your metabolism and your muscle. So if you're not using your muscles by like lifting heavy shit, uh, your body has no reason

48:27to keep it around because it's an expensive tissue to maintain. So it takes a lot of calories to maintain muscle on your body. So if you're not using it, your body's like, Hey, we should probably just break this down and use it for energy because we're not going to use them. So why do we need these muscles? And that's what cardio can send that signal where you end up with a slower metabolism with a worse physique. And you are actually not burning as many calories as you think you are doing cardio. Let's go. Are you in my brain? I literally just did a podcast on that exact kind of breakdown, like a couple podcasts ago

48:59and you just articulated that so fucking well. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. I love that. You're training. You're either training your body to optimize for cardiovascular endurance, or you're going to optimize your body for strength endurance. And I'm sure goal wise, whatever your goal is, it is your goal. If you want to be a marathon runner, optimize your body for cardiovascular health and running tons and tons of miles. But if you want muscle, which is, I think majority of our demographic, right? That listens to us. That follows us. They want to build more muscle. They want to have a stronger metabolism. It's like weight training, doing that, the active tissue that never stops, like that needs

49:33fuel, that needs energy. That's the side of things. So you want to optimize your body for that. Yeah, completely. Yeah. Do cardio because you love to do cardio. Or if you want to just maintain like a certain level of cardiovascular health, you know, like a lot of people push back. They're like, but I love swimming. I'm like, great. You should swim a lot as much as you want. It's just, that doesn't change the facts. It doesn't change the fact that like strength training is better for your metabolism, for, you know, bone health, for heart health.

50:04Like there's so many health benefits to it. Do cardio because you love cardio and because you want to improve cardiovascular health. But if your goal is body composition, if you want to look the part, if you want to improve your metabolism, you want to get leaner, toned, more athletic, strength training should be the primary focus. And then do whatever you want in terms of enjoyment. Amen. I just started running yesterday. I ran 2.6 miles yesterday for the first time in probably years. That sounds terrible. Just what?

50:34So that sounds terrible. I just run my cardiovascular health though. Cause I think that's hard to muscle, but like, you won't find me trying to run like half marathons or marathons or like even like six miles or that's, that's pushing it. Yeah. But the fact that you can just go out and run 2.6 miles after not doing it, that shows where you have that base level of endurance and health from strength training and maintaining a certain level of fitness. And like, that's how I feel. Like everybody should be able to, you know, for like, for life, we should be able to like

51:08pull ourselves up or get ourselves like physically out of a tough situation where, because we've been training our muscles and we should be, everybody should be able to just like run out, walk outside and go run a mile with, you know, without really struggling that much. And that's where, you know, you've kind of found that good balance. And obviously it'll take people different lengths of time to get there, but it's a worthy pursuit when it comes to just overall health. Amen. Yeah. Love that with ease. You should be able to do that with ease. Yeah. It was no problem. I jumped on the treadmill in the morning and ran 2.6 in 27 minutes.

51:41And I didn't like stop to try and take a break or like, you know, put your feet on the side of the treadmill. Like I just did it. And I hadn't done that in like, I don't know, two years, a year and a half. So yeah, I love it for the, for ease. Good stuff. Good freaking stuff. Okay. But one last question I got for you. If there was one piece of advice for somebody just starting their fitness journey and starting out on like their weight loss journey, what is that piece of advice that you would give them, especially towards the people that maybe have struggled in the past, have tried and struggled in the past.

52:11They're trying to start again. What would be that one piece of advice that you would want to give them? Get rid of the timeline. Stop, stop treating this like there's a finish line. Stop looking at the fastest path to whatever result, like buckle up and do this shit for life. And if you just have that frame of reference, can I do this forever? And do I want to do this forever? Like that is going to answer most of your questions. Oh, do I really have to fast until 2 PM? Do you want to do that forever? No. Okay. Then you don't have to do it. Like, it doesn't make sense, right?

52:43Do this shit for life. And if you just get rid of that finish line, get rid of the timeline and you truly treat this as a forever pursuit. Like it's an infinite game. The whole point of fitness is to just keep playing the game. There's like certain things in life that you win the game by just playing. There's no defined rules. There's no end game. You don't win. There's no final score. You literally are just playing to keep playing. So just keep doing it. Like you'll find you're going to fail. You're going to find things that don't work. That's great. That's information. That's feedback.

53:14Okay. This doesn't work for me. Let me try this over here. But if the only way that you lose is if you quit. And the only reason you quit is because your expectations are on a certain timeline that doesn't exist. There is no finish line. It's not, it's never over. So like, you don't have to stress. It's fine. Like, oh, this month didn't go so well. Great. We've got plenty more months to get our shit together and improve. So use that as feedback. What can I improve upon? Like, what are the daily habits that I want to try this month? Am I going to do this forever?

53:44Like, yeah. Let's take that mindset. And if you can truly make that mental reframe, this whole process becomes way more enjoyable, way less stressful, and your success is inevitable. Love that, Mike. Man, such good stuff in this podcast. Thank you so much for your time, your energy, your explanations, the breakdown of things, that three-step, right? Would you understand this? Okay. Then the next thing is behavior change. And the next thing is you got to do the work. And then why macros are bomb, like so many golden nuggets within this podcast.

54:17Thank you so much. Where I could continue to talk to you on and on about all of these things. And I'm sure people want to continue to listen to you. So where can they find you? Let them know. Yeah, I appreciate it. So my podcast is called Mind Over Macros, and that's on any podcast platform. If you just search Mind Over Macros, you'll find me. And I talk about this stuff, a lot of self-development mindset, but also nutrition, fitness, that sort of thing. And forewarning, if you are easily offended and you don't like real direct, blunt conversations,

54:49then you probably won't like the show. But if that's your jam, then give it a listen. And then Instagram, my handle is at coach underscore Mike underscore Milner, two L's in Milner. And those are all the places you can find me. Amazing. Well, these guys definitely love direct, no bullshit approach. So they'll definitely enjoy your podcast. Definitely check it out, you guys. And all the links will be in the description below. Mike, thanks so much for being here. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Real quick. The only ask I could ever have of you guys is to help spread the word so we can help more women lose body fat, build muscle, reach their goals, and feel insanely confident.

55:23And the only way we can do that is if you rate, review, and share this podcast. So the single thing I ask for you to do is if you could leave a review. It will take you 10 seconds. And it will mean the absolute world to me and may change the world of someone else.

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